Comments on: Is the Reformation Over? (Part II)

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Oct 2005 02:35:58 +0000

P.S.S. Roger– actually I just looked at my own post A Soft Gospel of Love and have to admit it's a bit hard to follow because I was responding to comments over at another blog…
Perhaps more relevant to the discussion above (and what I was talking to you about at GodBlogCon) is my post called Billy Graham's Last Stand.
Blessings,
Alex

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:13:26 +0000

P.S. Roger-- if you have a chance to look at it, I'd be interested in your thoughts on a post of mine called "A Soft Gospel of Love?", that I think is relevant to your discussion. Blessings, Alex

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:05:31 +0000

Hey Roger:
Hmm… interesting that our brief conversation when we met at GodBlogCon ended up being about Billy Graham and Roman Catholicism, and here you are writing about the same issues.
I'm not a prophet, but I have a feeling that the false gospel of Roman Catholicism is going to become a much bigger issue in the future, and I need to do my homework on it. Why will it become a big issue? 1. Because there are a billion or so Roman Catholics in the world, and 2. Because the spirit of the times we are living in is “inclusivism at the expense of truth”.
My impression has long been that Roman Catholicism is not in error on every point, but as a whole, it is a system whose foundation in not grace alone, justification by faith in Jesus alone.
And unfortunately, I think that a lot of intelligent, doctrinally sound Christians spend too much time trying to justify Rome's errors in the name of unity, rather than courageously correct them in love.
Thanks for your courageous post.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:20:18 +0000

Hello all, new poster here…
I think we make the unity question way too complicated. We don't have to achieve doctrinal unanimity in order to have spiritual unity.
Vickie asked, is it possible to determine who is a Christian?
Jesus told us that we would not be very reliable at distinguishing weeds from wheat. His angels will do the sorting at the end. So we are to err on the side of acceptance.
He also said if a man sins seven times in a day against me, and seven times comes and says “I repent”, I am to forgive the man. I am to take his word for it that he has repented…despite the fact that he had said that six previous times that day and then repeated the sin. I infer that we would not be very good at discerning true repentance from insincerity.
That being said, consider what is required to become a Christian. (admittedly a disputed point in itself…) Becoming a Christian does not require extensive theological study. A person can be a Christian without understanding the difference between sanctification and justification, for example…or without ever contemplating the issues about justification which led to the Reformation movement in the first place. So, if a person can become a Christian without understanding those things, he becomes my brother. It is not my choice. God adopted me, and God adopted him. We *are* brothers.
If a dozen, or a hundred, or a thousand people do the same, they are all my brothers and sisters…regardless of the depth of theological understanding they possess. To accept them as Christians, I must not require them to profess nor to demonstrate more than is required for initial conversion. If a man becomes my brother, he *is* my brother.
So, the basis for unity should be simply this: Anyone who seems to have met the simple basic requirements for conversion is my brother. Any church made up of such people should be considered Christian. At least it seems so to me…
Alan

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:10:15 +0000

Micah,
Thanks for the correction. Since I've never attended a Mass that's not something I know a lot about. I think the only Mass I've seen was the one given at Pope John Paul II's service, which was in Latin.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:43:45 +0000

Mass is not given in Latin at every Catholic church. There is a Latin Mass movement, but it is a minority position.
Latin Mass may be available at many Catholic churches, but most masses are conducted in English.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:25:48 +0000

So, here's another question in response to this interesting and thoughtful post:
If a person says that they are a committed Christian, and they say they want to obey the Lord, and they appear in an evangelical church, or a Roman Catholic church, or any other church, regularly, and they help the poor and witness to their acquaintances, and they don't have an honest relationship with the Lord, but no one knows this last fact except the Lord, are they a Christian? And can anyone (except the Lord) really see the evidence for this?
I'm being a provocateur here, I know, because someone could probably tell, at some point, that this hypothetical person might not be the Christian they claim to be, but it's also possible that no one could tell.
Here's the really difficult question, to which I am not sure I know the answer: if ones' relationship with the Lord determines whether one is a Christian, and so many of us have such a relationship, is it possible to determine, via external evidence (including creeds, works, denominational affiliation, etc), who is a Christian? and if you think so, how? (keeping in mind that I have studied scripture in response to this question)
+Vicky

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:57:00 +0000

I think ecumenicalism is a good goal and we should attempt to achieve it as much as possible without sacrificing any key tenants of the gospels in the process. The hard part is defining those central tenants. If we are too laxed or theologically disinterested, we run the risk of diluting and diminishing the Christian faith but including all sorts of heretical beliefs.
But equally disconcerting is the overally critical (and arrogant) attitude that only members of a certain denomination can be saved. I hate when litmus tests (akin to the Pharisee mindset) are applied from everything from worship style to consumption of alcohol.
Chad

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:21:22 +0000

I'm curious if people are aware of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification made by the Roman Catholic Church and Lutheran World Federation and signed in 1999. Avery Dulles wrote a synopsis and history of the Joint Declaration over at First Things.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:51:37 +0000

Noll and Nystrom cite a few stories of people converting from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism and their dissapointment at the congregation's lack of “concern for truth” (Kreeft), practical biblical preaching, and Bible studies. As I understand it, mass is still given in Latin at every Roman Catholic church. So it seems easy for someone to attend every Sunday and not know very much about official Church doctrine, blindly believing that they've got it right. I don't see much reason to consider people in this circumstance Protestant even though their beliefs might not line up with official teaching- Rome is still the church they choose to associate themselves with.