Comments on: Book Review: Running Against the Wind by Brian Flynn

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 02:40:41 +0000

Interesting to hear your responses Brian and Marcia. You are hilighting more of what you find offense in. I've heard none of the speakers you describe. I have not studied TM. I understand, Brian that none of this silencing I would do would be required, and I am disturbed by the suggestion that such a practice would be hailed as the way to find the closest intimacy with God.
I come to the silencing of the mind through Psychologcial studies. I appreciate your concern that the mystical experience could replace a faith centered on scripture and sound teaching.
As to the Ancient vs Medeival, that was a slip on my part. I am aware that the mystic traditions began in the medeival, not patristic era.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 00:19:47 +0000

Bill,
I will add to what Marcia wrote. If there is a leading or messages from the Holy Spirit or God it is not by a practice that Man initiates. There is no reference that silencing ones self accomplishes anything in terms of reaching the Lord. Also, by what method does one silence the mind? No one can silence their mind completely without a repetitive process. Our minds are always thinking. That's why a mantra or focusing on one's breath is used because of the inevitable distractions. God did communicate to Peter in Acts 11:3 but it was God who initiated the trance not Peter.
You do not need to silence your mind to pray to the Lord. He hears your prayer whether you are standing in the grocery line or driving your car. I understand that people wish to find a quiet or private place to pray but it isn't a requirement. Besides, God isn't going to speak into your mind anyway. The objective word of God is how he has spoken to us. Contemplating or meditating on his word is a good thing but silencing ones mind is never described or supported in scripture. “But when you pray, do not use vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their many words. Be not like them: for your Father knoweth what things you have need of, before you ask him.” Mt 6:7,8 If God knows what you are to pray than no special method is needed to get his attention.
If you are looking for how to find an answer to a personal life question, I will add a link to an article written by the pastor who wrote the forward to my book. http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue75.htm It describes how we are to know what is God's revealed will or does it simply fall into the category of Christian liberty. I believe this article will help you understand the process. Blessings brother.
Marcia, I too heard Keating speak and it was the most heretical speech I ever heard in a church. It was simply bizarre.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:28:43 +0000

Hello, Roger, Brian, and Bill. I'm joining in to comment on the contemplative prayer issue. I used to practice eastern meditation for a number of years, as well as follow some eastern teachings. I think the issue here is not just that other faiths practice this form of “meditation,” but that leaders of the contemplative prayer movement are teaching that this is the way to get close to God; indeed, THE way to be most intimate with God, as Thomas Keating says. I heard Keating speak, in person, in May of 2005 for 3 hrs. and as he led everyone (except myself and my friend who declined to participate) in a contemplative prayer session. I also had a personal, one on one conversation with him for awhile. He correlated contemplative prayer with sexual intimacy in marriage. I kid you not.
Bill, you may be doing this for whatever reasons, but why you do it is not really the issue. The issue is what is being taught in the Contemplative Prayer movement, such as proclaiming that this technique is the way to know God, and is the best way to know God. Words and thinking are downgraded because truth is beyond words. This is very Zen Bhuddist. The problem with this statement about words is that, first of all, that statement itself is in words and is thus self-refuting. Secondly, God Himself is the originator of words and language; indeed, He gave us His revelation in words.
The teachings go beyond just their form of meditation because they also carry baggage heavily tinged with eastern worldviews that are in opposition to a biblical worldview.
I agree with Brian's statements re the lack of an ancient mystical tradition. This mystical “tradition” is medieval, not ancient, and is not supported by scripture. Claims which are made that it is an ancient “Christian” practice do not make it so. The Contemplative Prayer Movement was started mainly by 3 monks — Keating, Menninger, and Pennington – and Eastern teachings such as TM were a part of this. I write about this in my article on Contemplative Prayer on my site. The influence of Thomas Merton, who was planning to start a Buddhist center in the US (but never got to it because of his death), is also profound on contemplative prayer.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 16 Jan 2006 05:29:23 +0000

Thanks for adding to the conversation Brian. I hesitate to ask you a question as you could very reasonably reply, please read my book, but is there something more troubling for you about meditation than that it is also practiced by people of other faiths? Is it that you can't find scriptural instruction to do so? We have other practices in common with other faiths. Most of us have faith practices that knowingly or unknowingly have no scriptural warrant. Theologically, psychologically, philosophically, what are the objections to quieting one's self and listening to God, or even just being present before God?
Roger and I went around on this a while back because I believed he was suggesting that we should never listen for the leading of the Holy Spirit. I don't recall his answer to that at the moment. It may have been that we don't receive propositional statements from God outside of the specific charismatic gift of a word of knowledge. Is your objection though different from this? Is it wrong for us to quiet ourselves, even to center our minds and being available for the Spirit's leading?
Again, I know, I could read the book. I'm sorry I don't have it in front of me. Feel no compulsion to answer.
Roger, though, would you be willing to share where you see the objection to this, and/or where you find this to be in opposition to scripture? Or does my description not contain that which you were opposing?
I will go on record to say that I have practiced what Roger and Brian may consider heresy. I think, though that I am describing something at least marginally different. I have as I alluded to before occasionally practiced quieting myself through meditation as an entrance to active prayer, or as a time to be silent before God, or to listen to God. I do not do this to achieve a particular closeness with God, or achieve a particular feeling or mystical experience. Perhaps this is at least in part what you are rebuking. I recognize the psycho-physiological effects of being in an altered state of consciousness, and I do not consider that in and of itself to be a religious experience or phenomenon. I do this to quiet the many competing thoughts in my head to bring me to a place of focus where I can pray, listen or be quiet before God undistracted.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 16 Jan 2006 04:16:31 +0000

Roger, thank for your positive review of my book. The New Age practice that is entering the church is Contemplative prayer. It is merely dressed up TM with Christian “intent”. To answer Bill, there is no mystical tradition to our faith in the early church.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 16 Jan 2006 03:16:00 +0000

Roger, I have some recollection of covering this ground before.
I think in the end, I don't affirm the version of Sola Scriptura that this group does.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 16 Jan 2006 01:06:52 +0000

Well, part of the point is that there aren't many differences between some of the meditation traditions in the church and TM. In some cases, the only difference may be the word used as a mantra. For a New Ager they might use “ienga,” while a Christian might use “peace” and they're actually doing everything else the same and they end up with identical experiences.
I've touched on this before, but it may be good to clarify- these “ancient disciplines of the church” aren't the practices of the early church, and more importantly, they are directly opposed to the Bible. The website referred to in my last comment goes into much of this, as well as book- which I recommend.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 16 Jan 2006 01:04:58 +0000

Roger, I looked up your link. I am both disappointed that they do not point to the mystic tradition of our faith as even a partial source for our present day meditation practices (but only source Hinduism, Bhudism and the occult,) and concerned that the mystic tradition seems to have been deemed to be without biblical foundation and therefore not a useful source -maybe even for dialogue- as part of our history as the church.
I am light heartedly amused by the concern over the danger of meditative prayer, but then, I have Charismatic friends that have led me to more openness to Spirit centered activities than my otherwise reformed upbringing would leave me. The site you link to seems to dismiss such faith practices and instead endorse only rationally centered practices.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 16 Jan 2006 00:46:47 +0000

I am only generally familiar with TM. In my own observation, we have a significant meditation tradition within the ancient disciplines of the church, and these are often conciousness altering activities. How would TM be set apart from them, if you are familiar?

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sun, 15 Jan 2006 19:06:59 +0000

Well, I did mention transcendental meditation (TM). That's the one Flynn spends the most time on, though he also talks about astrology, yoga, and a few others. The main one is TM - it encompasses a variety of meditative practices which are popular today. For more on the New Age and it's influence on the church, I recommend CANA- http://cana.userworld.com/cana_contents.html