Comments on: Some Problems Feminism Helped Cause…

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sun, 02 Apr 2006 18:02:00 +0000

First, I might be concerned, Tim that people might think you are being this terse with someone whom you have no relationship, so I want to make it clear to any others who are reading that Tim and I have a personal relationship that spans a decade of working together and friendship. I was his youth leader, later he assisted me as a volunteer in youth ministry. We worked together on camp staff for several years and he video taped my wedding.
Second, Tim, I wasn't aware that this was a repost of articles from a year ago.
Third, I regret that my feedback regarding my responses to your writing has been percieved to be unhelpful. I will in the future seek to refrain from being personal in my interactions with your writing – though I find that a genuine loss in our interaction – and interact in the more abstract and formal tone that Micah has.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sun, 02 Apr 2006 17:22:00 +0000

I have in mind a number of things when I say “the majority of men with children,” and inner-city crime and gangs was first to come to mind. I'm also thinking of the high divorce rate, which certainly isn't always a sign of bad fathering, but often is. If just half of divorced families involve bad fathering, that's roughly 25%. But these men often have children with multiple women, and these days many men have children outside of marriage. Perhaps it's not really a good indication, but I think much of what is in the media is the result of poor fathering. Fight Club (one of my favorite movies) shows us the result of poor fathering, as does most other rater 'R' films. Additionally, the only good fathers I've met are committed Christians, and I don't suspect there to be very many of these comparatively. So all of that is wrapped up in my “impression,” for good or for ill.
I agree that “very few men” says more than I want to say, and is particularly a poor choice of words in light of an audience that includes a many good fathers. I think the need for sensitivity may be even greater than you suggest. When I generalize I usually think “those who aren't this way will be able to tell themselves apart.” But fathering (I'm guessing) is likely to be an area where is there is a lot of second-guessing. I'm thinking this is the case because one of my greatest fears in life is not being a good father, and if I have anxiety about it before I have children, I imagine I'll have much more should I be blessed to have them. So I can see how for me to say something like that may lead some fathers to have unintended angst about their own situation. I repent!

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sun, 02 Apr 2006 16:31:00 +0000

There is much in this post that I think is great and that's why I hesitated with my initial comment, but I suppose that it's too late now.
Roger, if your general impression is based on gangs and inner-city Los Angeles (“I'm primarily thinking of inner city crimes and gangs”), then I really think you should heavily qualify your initial statement. If this is all you're going on, then you really don't have any reason to state categorically that “very few men today are good fathers”. It's just detracts from the good things in your article because you don't have a basis for such a sweeping generalization.
While I don't think Bill is correct to assume you think he's a poor father (this does I think read too much into it, and imo Bill should assume charity on your part), I also don't think it is improper for you to consider your audience when writing about these sorts of issues. If I were to expound on Aristotle's suggestion that the young should not engage in philosophy, using the example say of 23 year-olds writing about family and sex relations, and I wanted to argue that the vast majority of 23 year-olds knew very little about the subject, and I knew there were a number of 23 year-olds in my audience, I'd be careful that 1) I really had good evidence or a really good argument to think 23 year-olds weren't good philosophers, and 2) that I took into account that 23 year-olds would be reading my argument, and that there will be exceptions to the “vast majority”.
Just like we're careful when writing about Christian issues because most of this blog's readers are Christians (and thus it's not just an academic exercise), so when writing about fatherhood it is prudent to into account the extent to which fathers will be invested the content and presentation of your argument.
“I don't think we could really cite statistics either way, but I think we can agree that a significant number of men are not concerned with being good fathers and this has had devastating consequences.”
There are some statistics here that would be helpful, and I'd refer you to the work of Bradford Wilcox, a very serious Christian who is also a sociologist at the University of Virginia. His work would support a lot of what you've said (apart from the “few good fathers” line I suspect, though maybe there too).
And yes, we certainly agree that a significant number of men are not living up to their calling as fathers, and I think we'd also agree that radical feminism has had a huge part to play in this. After all, when one part of the message has been that women don't need men, and another part is that women can be as sexually libertine as men, then men hear that they can have free sex and that they aren't needed. Many listen and heed the message.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sat, 01 Apr 2006 23:20:00 +0000

“And so Bill doesn't obscenely personalize my words again-”
Were you here referring to these comments, or a discussion passed?

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sat, 01 Apr 2006 23:15:00 +0000

Tim, I don't remember what you were referring to. I was just referring to this post here.
Roger, I wasn't trying to innappropriately personalize what you wrote, I was offering a reader response criticism. It wasn't my intent to suggest that you had any specific knowledge or opinion of me as a father. Rather, if the vast majority are indicted as poor, I would be concerned that if you did know of my parenting, you would judge it to be poor.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sat, 01 Apr 2006 19:19:00 +0000

I agree that there are many good men who are trying to be good fathers. But my impression (perhaps because I've spent most of my time in So. Cal.) is that the majority of men with children are not concerned with being good fathers. I'm primarily thinking of inner city crimes and gangs. I think most of those problems would be solved had there been good fathers. Perhaps we don

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sat, 01 Apr 2006 14:47:00 +0000

Not to nitpick, Bill, but how is your suspicion that something which Roger wrote a year ago means that he holds you to be a not good father founded on something more than your personal impression?

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sat, 01 Apr 2006 13:26:00 +0000

I also thought the statements about how few good fathers there were was problematic. Firstly, Micah and I, and many others who would read your post are fathers. If very few are good, by which you mean a small percentage, the likelihood that Micah or I fit into the very smaller number of “good fathers” is very small over and against the much larger number of “not good fathers.” It is hard as I read this not to at least suspect that you hold me to be a “not good father.”
This is a very significant charge, which you would find people respond to very defensively. If you want to say that there are very few good fathers, I don't suggest you wait a week to say what you mean by it, but rather directly explain both how few good fathers you think there are and why you do not consider others good fathers.
I also agree with Micah, that it is something you've thrown out there easily without any substantiation. I was inclined when I read it to write it off as the bluster of youth, as it wasn't founded on anything more than your personal impression.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sat, 01 Apr 2006 12:04:00 +0000

(I realize that much more could be said about this, but I will allow you to think of examples from your own lives and experiences that evidence this problem as I move on.)
Helpful discussion overall, thanks. My one quibble is I think the discussion of there being so few good fathers, and decreasingly few good mothers, is too easily put out there. My own experience is that there are lots of good fathers and good mothers (as well as lots of not-so-good).
“Very few men today are good fathers.”
Don't necessarily want to argue this, but want to register my dissent on this point. The place of fatherhood in our society is in tatters in many ways, and this does effect actual fathers, but there are plenty of men out there who are working hard to be good fathers and could care less about the cultural and philosophical nonsense that rages more on the coasts and cities than where they live.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sat, 01 Apr 2006 01:18:00 +0000

The basic idea that men and women are generally created different, and that these differences are complimentary is something I have no difficulty affirming. I do not agree with those who believe that the general tendency in giftedness is concretely and absolutely necessary for every man and every woman. I am not suggesting that you have put that forward, but others have. There are many within the more conservative realm of Christianity who would find my wife and your pastor's wife to be derelict of their duties, and for reasons that I can not quite follow, a threat to the fabric of our society.
I bring this up again not because you are expressing these views, but because your arguments could be perceived to be supporting these views without your explicit disclaimer.
When I was a child, born in the 70's, it seemed popular to believe that there were no gender differences inherent to our males and females from birth. Rather, it was popularly believed that all gender differences were socially defined. As we, the children of this generation reached our twenties, we looked at ourselves, and at the children we were beginning to baby sit and raise and found that this premise just didn't ring true. While I and others like me could continue to affirm that a good deal of what it means to be a man or a woman, boy or a girl is culturally conditioned, there are obvious differences between males and females outside of any conditioning we wish to bring to them.
When we accept that we are generally different, it is not difficult to accept that we are complimentary. My view of it is not simple though. I believe there are a number of different dominance/sub-dominance constellations between men and women, for instance. There are men who are naturally more suited to be partners with more dominant women, and vice versa. In a number of other polar attributes as well, I believe we compliment one another as we come together in marriage. Some that are traditionally understood to be feminine are sometimes stronger in the male than the female of the pair and vice versa.
So, while I affirm general differences in the genders, and appreciate their complimentary nature, I am more flexible than some in my expectation of which partner would bring which attribute to the union.
I also, as I noted above, affirm the honor and worth of the role and the tasks of staying home and raising children. I have some sympathy for those who felt that they were constricted to a role that was not valued by society as the roles open to men were. I agree though, that when they proclaim that traditional motherhood is an unfulfilling and unliberated life, they have denigrated a noble and worthy calling.
As to your connection with the role of motherhood and abortion, I agree they are related, but I find the connection somewhat week. You noted that this was one of many contributing factors. I would agree that the general movement of women's liberation set an atmosphere of fighting for the freedom of women. I don't so much see a causal link from one to the next.
I am now going on to too many points, but Roger, I find that I affirm a good amount of what the women's liberation movement accomplished. Women now have the opportunity to use their gifts in the work force, to be paid fairly for that work, and held in the dignity and respect that their male counterparts are. This is not all at the expense of child raising and rearing, though I don't deny some of it is. Are there any products of the more recent women's liberation that you can affirm or appreciate, or do all those benefits I describe not fall under the radical feminism group that you are referring to?