Comments on: Another Response to Phillip Johnson

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 09 Aug 2006 03:48:00 +0000

Bruce Ware gave permission for me to post his document outlining various positions on the atonement. The third option, letter C, un/limited atonement or multiple intentions view is the one I find to be very close to that of the elders at Mars Hill. The pdf can be found here. It is in outline form but touches all the texts and positions quite well. Now one can say "this is not the reformed position" if you choose. Dr. Ware is an outstanding scholar who holds firmly to the doctrines of grace and as strong a postion on meticulous divine providence that one will find...a fine infralapsarian and a great teacher as well. So the Mars Hill guys are in now way "modified Arminians" in my opinion.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Aug 2006 04:40:00 +0000

He gave it out to us in class as a five page outline…I'm not sure if it is a public document. The file is entitled:
Extent of the Atonement:
Outline of The Issue, Positions, Key Texts,
and Key Theological Arguments
Bruce A. Ware
Professor of Christian Theology
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
In a nutshell his summary is as follows:
“Un/limited Atonement or Multiple Intentions View (Four Point Calvinist Position)”
Statement of the Position
God

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Aug 2006 22:01:00 +0000

Scott Z: "when I read critiques of Driscoll I always wonder in the back of my mind whether or not the critic is more uncomfortable with Driscoll's theology or the way he packages it." Well, in my mind the latter concern is admittedly a factor, but I don't think a neat line can always be drawn between content and medium. Marshall McLuhan was right about that. I have to say, however, that my concerns are hardly as gauche as whether someone wears a tie. Getting facial piercings and tattoos in order to "contextualize" oneself for the goth and skater communities would be more in the direction of the kind of thing that concerns me. On the specific example you cited, I'll admit to you that I don't know enough about UFC® to know whether it's wholesome or not. But if a preacher starts illustrating tales in such a way as to suggest that he sees no inconsistency between the blamelessness required of an elder and a pastime or personal passion that is clearly unwholesome, he has already compromised his message. With that in mind, let me say that the remark I made about Driscoll was in reference to language he uses and anecdotes he tells, such as the one Tim Challies cited at the end of his review of Confessions of a Reformission Rev. By the way, the "phil" who has posted comments in this thread is someone other than me, in case anyone might be confusing us.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Aug 2006 14:39:00 +0000

It would seem to me that Driscoll is not attempting to “blend Reformed theology with postmodern epistemologies.” The truth claims he regularly makes regarding doctrine and his bibliology alone are enough to show the man holds postmodern epistemologies in contempt. I would like to see Phil Johnson (or others) be more specific regarding particular manifestations of how Driscoll is flirting with and dabbling in postmodern approaches to theology which doom his theology. I ask that not rhetorically but as an honest question seeking to understand this critique better.
It may not be fair, but when I read critiques of Driscoll I always wonder in the back of my mind whether or not the critic is more uncomfortable with Driscoll's theology or the way he packages it. If Driscoll made the same truth claims (doctrines) but wore a tie, didn't use illustrations from Ultimate Fighting Championship, and moved out of the Pacific Northwest would that make him any more or less “hopelessly naive”?
SEZ

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Aug 2006 14:29:00 +0000

I'm not familiar with Bruce Ware's position on atonement. Where is that available?
I'll be posting tonight after work on Driscoll's view of atonement since apparently some don't think his is much different from the traditional Reformed view. I too appreciate his generally good theology balanced with missional adeptness. This is the only point in his theology I've had a problem with so far.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Aug 2006 14:18:00 +0000

Driscoll does hold to a position known as "Unlimited Limited Atonement" - in my understanding it is very similar to that of Bruce Ware. Interesting enough, Dr. Ware will be speaking on Mode of Providence in partnership with Resurgence in Seattle. I think the more the Mars Hill guys interact with good reformed theologians and the more the reformed theologians interact with the Mars Hill guys the better the both shall be. Driscoll's sermon on the subject can be found here. Personally, I like the paths being blazed which are theologically driven and missiologically contextualized...a narrow road, but one which ought to be forged in the wilderness of the contemporary West.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Aug 2006 06:53:00 +0000

Roger: "I know too many people who are open to this stuff to just walk away and let them walk down that path. If we have a voice in the conversation, we have a better chance of influencing them." I can appreciate that. Those same people are who I am most concerned for, too. But I'd rather be a voice from outside the movement itself. It seems to me church history shows a pretty consistent pattern on this: people who try to remain in an abberant movement or a mixed multitude in order to be an "influence" ultimately have less influence than those who stand outside and try from that position to minister appropriately to those still on the inside(distinguishing as carefully as possible between the convinced and the merely confused). See Jude 21-23.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Aug 2006 00:17:00 +0000

That's true. But I think what Barna's looking at is a larger evangelical problem, not necessarily an emerging church problem. I agree, though, that Hauerwas, Grenz, and Franke have been influential in promoting postmodern epistemology.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sun, 06 Aug 2006 20:37:00 +0000

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By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:27:00 +0000