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	<title>Comments on: The Radio Killed the Bloggers</title>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://afcmin.org/ateam/473/the-radio-killed-the-bloggers/comment-page-1#comment-2201</link>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Sep 2006 03:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Andrew,
I finally got some time today to respond to your post.  I appreciate your patience.
It&#039;s hard for me to say whether you&#039;re representing my argument accurately, because your representation is less clear to me than the way I initially spelled it out.  For example, you said:
&quot;Axiom:  There is an absolute, objective modality of moral thought that governs human behavior.&quot;
I don&#039;t know what you mean by &quot;modality of moral thought&quot; or what it would mean for that modality of moral thought to be objective and absolute.  Thinking is necessarily subjective.  What I&#039;m interested in is morals themselves, not our thoughts &lt;i&gt;about&lt;/i&gt; morals.  I think there are objective moral values, but it has nothing to do with our thoughts.  At best we hope that our thoughts correspond to those morals so we can know about them, but the meaning of being objective is that they would be what they are whether we thought about them or not.  Our thoughts have nothing to do with them.
I&#039;m also not sure what you mean by &quot;governs human behavior.&quot;  If you mean that morals dictate what human behavior ought to be, then yes, I would agree.  But if you mean they &lt;i&gt;determine&lt;/i&gt; what human behavior in fact &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt;, then no, I wouldn&#039;t agree because people can act contrary to their moral obligations.
Another thing you said was:
&quot;Premise B: Absolute, objective morality must exist in order to generate a modality of moral thought that governs human behavior.&quot;
Again, I just don&#039;t know what you mean.  I don&#039;t think objective morality must exist in order for people to think about morals.  It&#039;s possible that there are no objective moral values, and we&#039;ve just come up with culturally constructed values that are entirely subjective.  So if what you&#039;re saying is that objective morals must exist before people can think moral thoughts, no, I don&#039;t agree with that.
Granted, I don&#039;t fully understand the argument you presented as being mine, but I&#039;m pretty sure it&#039;s not exactly what I argued.  Let me put my argument as simply as I can.
1.  If there is no God, then there are no objective morals.
2.  There are objective morals.
3.  Therefore, there is a God.
Let me know if you need me to explain what I mean by &quot;objective morals.&quot;
What you said next does apply to my first premise.  You said that it isn&#039;t enough to say God is a possible source of morality, but that I have to show God is a &lt;i&gt;necessary&lt;/i&gt; source of morality (actually you said &quot;modality of moral thought,&quot; but regardless of what that means, I do think God is necessary for there to be objective morals).  In the links I provided, I did make an argument to that effect.  I argued that before there can be any objective moral values, there must be a transcendent, personal, and necessary being who is the source of those morals.
Next you said my argument requires that the axiom above be true, but that the axiom is unsupported.  Let&#039;s ignore for the moment the confusing way you worded the axiom and let&#039;s just say that my real axiom is simply the second premise in the argument I gave above--There are objective morals.  You&#039;re right to say that my argument requires this premise.  If, when you say the premise is unsupported, you mean that I myself haven&#039;t defended it yet, then you&#039;re right.  I said earlier in this thread that I hadn&#039;t given an argument for that premise yet.  It has been a mere assumption in this thread that I haven&#039;t bothered to defend.
You brought up Bill Craig&#039;s defense of that premise which was to say basically:  We have a moral conscience, therefore objective moral values exist.  Then you went on to refute the whole moral argument by assuming that&#039;s the only defense.
Since the premise that there are objective morals depended on the premise that we have a moral conscience, you went on to give six or eight reasons for why God is not &lt;i&gt;necessary&lt;/i&gt; for there to be a moral conscience.  You seem to be refuting this argument:
4. If we have a conscience, then there are objective morals (from Bill Craig).
5. If there are objective morals, then there is a God.
6. Therefore, if there is a conscience, then there is a God.
Your strategy is to show that God is not the only possible source of conscience.  If God is not the only possible source of conscience, then God&#039;s existence doesn&#039;t follow necessarily from our conscience.
If that&#039;s what you&#039;re arguing, then I totally agree with you.  Premise four above is not necessarily true.  It&#039;s possible that there are no objective morals.  It&#039;s possible that our moral perceptions are illusions.  It&#039;s possible that morals are entirely subjective.
My argument assumes that morals are &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; merely subjective.  My argument assumes that there are objective morals.  To refute my argument, you need to show either that there are no objective morals, or you need to show that God isn&#039;t necessary for objective morals.  Showing that God isn&#039;t necessary for us to have a conscience does nothing to refute my argument since &quot;conscience&quot; and &quot;moral thoughts&quot; aren&#039;t part of my argument.
You could say that my argument has not been proved since I haven&#039;t supported the premise that objective morals exist.  That&#039;s fine.  You&#039;re right about that.  If that&#039;s what you want to say, then we need to change gears and open a discussion about whether or not there are any objective morals.  At that point, perhaps your comments about concience and moral thoughts &lt;i&gt;will&lt;/i&gt; become relevent.
Since your comments about moral thoughts are irrelevent, some of your eight points are also irrelevent.  Your first point, for example, is irrelevent, because you basically argue there that our moral thoughts do not necessarily mean there are objective morals.
Your second point is relevent, because you&#039;re arguing that &quot;objective morals exist,&quot; or &quot;There&#039;s a real difference between right and wrong&quot; is a meaningless statement.  If it&#039;s a meaningless statement, then the moral argument is incoherent and doesn&#039;t prove anything about the existence of God.  But it&#039;s not a meaningless statement.  I understand perfectly what it means.  Your argument seems to be, &quot;Morals are more like the number twelve than mangoes.  Twelve doesn&#039;t really exist like mangoes do, so neither do morals.&quot;
I think J.P. Moreland does think of numbers in a Platonic sense, but I&#039;m not sure that I do.  So while I can agree that morals don&#039;t exist in the same sense that mangoes do (i.e. they aren&#039;t physical), I don&#039;t think they exist in the same sense as numbers either.  I would say they exist in the same sense as any proposition that corresponds to reality.  Earlier in this thread, I compared moral laws to the laws of logic.  They are both real in the sense that they are objectively true statements that correspond to reality.  They would be true whether anybody knew about them or not, so their truth doesn&#039;t depend on our subjective preferences or perceptions.  It&#039;s no more meaningless to say &quot;Objective moral values exist&quot; than it is to say &quot;The laws of logic exist.&quot;
Now I suppose you may be quibbling about my use of the word &quot;exist,&quot; because when you think of &quot;exist,&quot; you think of some object that is physically instantiated in the world.  It could be that our difference in opinion here isn&#039;t so much in the concept I mean to convey, but merely in my use of the word &quot;exist.&quot;  If so, then fine.  Rather than arguing about how the word &quot;exist&quot; should be used, let&#039;s just avoid confusion and not use the word &quot;exist.&quot;  Let&#039;s not even use the word &quot;real&quot; since that seemed to cause just as much confusion earlier in this thread.  Let&#039;s just say that statements like, &quot;It is right and obligitory for you to love your children,&quot; and &quot;It is wrong and forbidden for you to rape your mother&quot; are objectively true statements.  And let&#039;s call these kinds of statements &quot;moral statements,&quot; and let&#039;s say that some moral statements are objectively true.  Will that work for you?  So here&#039;s my revised argument--the same argument, mind you, but reworded in hopes of being more clear:
7.  If there is no God, then no moral statements are objectively true.
8.  Some moral statements are objectively true.
9.  Therefore, there is a God.
Is that better?
I suppose if I wanted to be silly, I could also quibble with your second and third points.  First, you say Premise A is incoherent, and then you say that to the extent that it&#039;s cognizable, it&#039;s false.  If it&#039;s incoherent, then it&#039;s not cognizable, and it can&#039;t be true &lt;i&gt;or&lt;/i&gt; false.  To what extent is it cognizable anyway?  You gave the impression that it wasn&#039;t coherent at all.
Anyway, I&#039;m just being silly.  Let me actually address what you said in your third point about Kant.
Your third point seems to be dealing with epistemology, so it&#039;s irrelevent to my argument.  You seem to be arguing that since we can arrive at moral knowledge &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt;, by reason alone, without an external source of that knowledge, then God isn&#039;t necessary for our moral knowledge.  This is irrelevent, because I haven&#039;t argued that God is necessary for our moral knowledge.  Rather, I have argued that God is necessary for there to be objective morals.
I also think you&#039;re reasoning here is faulty, but I&#039;m resisting the urge to go into that since it&#039;s irrelevent and would only cause this discussion to get longer.
Your third point is very interesting, though, because it seems to say exactly what Bill Craig said, yet you agree with Kant and disagree with Craig.  I say &lt;i&gt;seems&lt;/i&gt; because I&#039;m not sure I understand everything you and Kant are saying.  But by saying morals are &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt;, doesn&#039;t that mean that our moral knowledge comes immediately upon reflection?  That it isn&#039;t derived from anything empirical?  You quoted Kant as saying, &quot;...proper mathematical judgments are a priori, and not empirical...&quot;  If so, then &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; knowledge is the same thing as knowledge by intuition.
If moral knowledge is &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; then doesn&#039;t that &lt;i&gt;support&lt;/i&gt; Craig?  Kant and Craig both seems to be saying that we have an innate sense of moral obligation.  They both consider this &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; idea to be &quot;knowledge.&quot;  They&#039;re both saying we just happen to know moral rules, because our cognitive faculties are such that this knowledge is automatic.  I find it interesting that you would dispute Craig&#039;s argument (that we all have an innate sense of right and wrong, therefore objective moral values exist) when Kant seems to be saying the same thing.
I get the impression toward the end of point three that you&#039;re confusing epistemology and ontology again.  The whole discussion about synthetic &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; judgements is a discussion about epistemology--how we know about morals and math, and how we can make moral and mathmatical judgments.  But then at the end you said, &quot;Since no external lawgiver is necessary to make 7 + 5 equal to 12, similarly, no external lawgiver is necessary for...moral propositions that we also derive from human reason, acting alone.&quot;  Surely you don&#039;t think our reason is what &lt;i&gt;causes&lt;/i&gt; 7+5 to equal 12, do you?  The question you addressed (and Kant addressed) is not what makes 7 + 5 = 12, but how we &lt;i&gt;know&lt;/i&gt; that 7 + 5 = 12.  Kant doesn&#039;t even address the question of what makes 7+5=12.  Nor does he address the question of what makes mother stabbing and father raping wrong.  He only addresses the question of how we know these things.  Your third point is irrelevent, because my moral argument for God deals with the ontological question of how there can be moral obligations, not the epistemological question of how we can know about them.
Your fourth point is even more interesting than the third.  First, you say that Kant has shown that &quot;human beings can derive objectively real truths through reason alone,&quot; but then you said there is &quot;no good reason to suppose that objective morality exists.&quot;  How is it possible for Kant to show that we can derive objectively real truths about morals if there &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; no objective truths about morals?
It may surprise you to find that I completely agree with Kant in this section. I suspect in this unusual case that it&#039;s &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; who has had a hard time understanding him.  Kant isn&#039;t arguing that morals are subjective.  If fact, he&#039;s saying just the opposite.  He&#039;s saying that our reason is able to objectively recognize morals are necessary, but our will is subjectively contingent.  That is, we can know that something is objectively and necessarily wrong, and yet because of our subjective impulses, our will may not act accordingly.  Many subjective conditions cause our will to act contrary to what our reason recognizes as objectively and necessarily right or wrong.
I&#039;m afraid Kant isn&#039;t helping you out at all.  He seems to be on &lt;i&gt;my&lt;/i&gt; side.
In the fifth point, you&#039;re back to refuting the strawman that &quot;if there is a conscience, then there is a God.&quot;  You do it by showing how we might arrive at some ideal moral principles in the same way we arrive at an ideal liver--by observation and extrapolation.  I don&#039;t think the analogy really works, but since this argument is irrelevent, and I&#039;d like to shorten the discussion, I won&#039;t go into why.
The sixth point is relevent, because I &lt;i&gt;did&lt;/i&gt; say the moral law implies a moral law-giver.  If it doesn&#039;t imply a moral lawgiver, then my argument doesn&#039;t work.  You compared moral standards to standards of measurement.  I do think they are analogous in some ways which I&#039;ve mentioned on my blog, but they are not analogous in the way you need them to be.
First, standards of measurements are conventions humans have agreed to.  If morals are also conventions humans have agreed to in the same way, then morals are not objective in the sense I&#039;ve been claiming.  Morals are culturally relative, since until fairly recently, standards of measurements have been culturally relative as well.  Since we are discussing whether an external lawgiver is necessary for objective moral values, your analogy doesn&#039;t work.  Your analogy doesn&#039;t explain objective moral values at all.  It only explains cuturally relative moral values.
Second, the analogy doesn&#039;t work because moral standards entail values and rules people are obligated to follow, whereas standards of measurements don&#039;t.  Morals have qualities that standards of measurments don&#039;t, and these qualities that morals have are what make a lawgiver necessary.  I explained those qualities in the links I provided earlier, and why they necessitate a moral lawgiver.
Third, even if we suppose the analogy works, surely it can&#039;t escape your notice that a standard of measurement can&#039;t exist without a person or body of persons dictating that something be the standard.  In a sense, that person or body of persons would have the be a lawgiver.  The standard of measurement is really their will since they decide what a yard or a meter will be.  They are the measurement lawgivers.  If morals and measurements are analogous in the way you need them to be, then morals require a moral law-giver(s) as well.
Your seventh point is irrelevent, because it addresses the epistemological question of how we can know morals.  Your repeated use of &quot;even if there are objective morals laws...&quot; shows that your argument is irrelevent.  If there are objective moral laws, then my moral argument for God is sound.  It doesn&#039;t matter whether we know what they are or not.
Incidentally, you also seem to be contradicting what you said before about Kant.  Kant showed that we have &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; knowledge about morals, and that morals are necessary and objective just like math.  He argued that we can know morals by reason alone.  But you seem to doubt our morals on the same basis that Kant believed in them.  You say, &quot;we can&#039;t access those laws through anything except human reason,&quot; as if that&#039;s some reason to doubt them.  Either you&#039;re contradicting yourself, or I&#039;ve got a misunderstanding.
I have a pretty serious disagreement with your reasoning in your seventh point, but I&#039;m going to let that go for the same reasons I let some of my other disagreements go above.
Your eighth point is actually the best one you made.  I think the Euthyphro dilemma is one of the best challenges to the moral argument for God.  If you read my arguments from the links I provided, though, you&#039;d see that I already addressed it.  In fact, the Euthyphro dilemma actually became part of my argument for God.
Well that&#039;s it Andrew.  I may not respond again, because this response has taken me a few hours.  If I do respond, it won&#039;t be until next weekend, because that&#039;s really the only time I&#039;m going to have a few hours free.  Thanks for giving me something to think about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew,<br />
I finally got some time today to respond to your post.  I appreciate your patience.<br />
It&#39;s hard for me to say whether you&#39;re representing my argument accurately, because your representation is less clear to me than the way I initially spelled it out.  For example, you said:<br />
&#8220;Axiom:  There is an absolute, objective modality of moral thought that governs human behavior.&#8221;<br />
I don&#39;t know what you mean by &#8220;modality of moral thought&#8221; or what it would mean for that modality of moral thought to be objective and absolute.  Thinking is necessarily subjective.  What I&#39;m interested in is morals themselves, not our thoughts <i>about</i> morals.  I think there are objective moral values, but it has nothing to do with our thoughts.  At best we hope that our thoughts correspond to those morals so we can know about them, but the meaning of being objective is that they would be what they are whether we thought about them or not.  Our thoughts have nothing to do with them.<br />
I&#39;m also not sure what you mean by &#8220;governs human behavior.&#8221;  If you mean that morals dictate what human behavior ought to be, then yes, I would agree.  But if you mean they <i>determine</i> what human behavior in fact <i>is</i>, then no, I wouldn&#39;t agree because people can act contrary to their moral obligations.<br />
Another thing you said was:<br />
&#8220;Premise B: Absolute, objective morality must exist in order to generate a modality of moral thought that governs human behavior.&#8221;<br />
Again, I just don&#39;t know what you mean.  I don&#39;t think objective morality must exist in order for people to think about morals.  It&#39;s possible that there are no objective moral values, and we&#39;ve just come up with culturally constructed values that are entirely subjective.  So if what you&#39;re saying is that objective morals must exist before people can think moral thoughts, no, I don&#39;t agree with that.<br />
Granted, I don&#39;t fully understand the argument you presented as being mine, but I&#39;m pretty sure it&#39;s not exactly what I argued.  Let me put my argument as simply as I can.<br />
1.  If there is no God, then there are no objective morals.<br />
2.  There are objective morals.<br />
3.  Therefore, there is a God.<br />
Let me know if you need me to explain what I mean by &#8220;objective morals.&#8221;<br />
What you said next does apply to my first premise.  You said that it isn&#39;t enough to say God is a possible source of morality, but that I have to show God is a <i>necessary</i> source of morality (actually you said &#8220;modality of moral thought,&#8221; but regardless of what that means, I do think God is necessary for there to be objective morals).  In the links I provided, I did make an argument to that effect.  I argued that before there can be any objective moral values, there must be a transcendent, personal, and necessary being who is the source of those morals.<br />
Next you said my argument requires that the axiom above be true, but that the axiom is unsupported.  Let&#39;s ignore for the moment the confusing way you worded the axiom and let&#39;s just say that my real axiom is simply the second premise in the argument I gave above&#8211;There are objective morals.  You&#39;re right to say that my argument requires this premise.  If, when you say the premise is unsupported, you mean that I myself haven&#39;t defended it yet, then you&#39;re right.  I said earlier in this thread that I hadn&#39;t given an argument for that premise yet.  It has been a mere assumption in this thread that I haven&#39;t bothered to defend.<br />
You brought up Bill Craig&#39;s defense of that premise which was to say basically:  We have a moral conscience, therefore objective moral values exist.  Then you went on to refute the whole moral argument by assuming that&#39;s the only defense.<br />
Since the premise that there are objective morals depended on the premise that we have a moral conscience, you went on to give six or eight reasons for why God is not <i>necessary</i> for there to be a moral conscience.  You seem to be refuting this argument:<br />
4. If we have a conscience, then there are objective morals (from Bill Craig).<br />
5. If there are objective morals, then there is a God.<br />
6. Therefore, if there is a conscience, then there is a God.<br />
Your strategy is to show that God is not the only possible source of conscience.  If God is not the only possible source of conscience, then God&#39;s existence doesn&#39;t follow necessarily from our conscience.<br />
If that&#39;s what you&#39;re arguing, then I totally agree with you.  Premise four above is not necessarily true.  It&#39;s possible that there are no objective morals.  It&#39;s possible that our moral perceptions are illusions.  It&#39;s possible that morals are entirely subjective.<br />
My argument assumes that morals are <i>not</i> merely subjective.  My argument assumes that there are objective morals.  To refute my argument, you need to show either that there are no objective morals, or you need to show that God isn&#39;t necessary for objective morals.  Showing that God isn&#39;t necessary for us to have a conscience does nothing to refute my argument since &#8220;conscience&#8221; and &#8220;moral thoughts&#8221; aren&#39;t part of my argument.<br />
You could say that my argument has not been proved since I haven&#39;t supported the premise that objective morals exist.  That&#39;s fine.  You&#39;re right about that.  If that&#39;s what you want to say, then we need to change gears and open a discussion about whether or not there are any objective morals.  At that point, perhaps your comments about concience and moral thoughts <i>will</i> become relevent.<br />
Since your comments about moral thoughts are irrelevent, some of your eight points are also irrelevent.  Your first point, for example, is irrelevent, because you basically argue there that our moral thoughts do not necessarily mean there are objective morals.<br />
Your second point is relevent, because you&#39;re arguing that &#8220;objective morals exist,&#8221; or &#8220;There&#39;s a real difference between right and wrong&#8221; is a meaningless statement.  If it&#39;s a meaningless statement, then the moral argument is incoherent and doesn&#39;t prove anything about the existence of God.  But it&#39;s not a meaningless statement.  I understand perfectly what it means.  Your argument seems to be, &#8220;Morals are more like the number twelve than mangoes.  Twelve doesn&#39;t really exist like mangoes do, so neither do morals.&#8221;<br />
I think J.P. Moreland does think of numbers in a Platonic sense, but I&#39;m not sure that I do.  So while I can agree that morals don&#39;t exist in the same sense that mangoes do (i.e. they aren&#39;t physical), I don&#39;t think they exist in the same sense as numbers either.  I would say they exist in the same sense as any proposition that corresponds to reality.  Earlier in this thread, I compared moral laws to the laws of logic.  They are both real in the sense that they are objectively true statements that correspond to reality.  They would be true whether anybody knew about them or not, so their truth doesn&#39;t depend on our subjective preferences or perceptions.  It&#39;s no more meaningless to say &#8220;Objective moral values exist&#8221; than it is to say &#8220;The laws of logic exist.&#8221;<br />
Now I suppose you may be quibbling about my use of the word &#8220;exist,&#8221; because when you think of &#8220;exist,&#8221; you think of some object that is physically instantiated in the world.  It could be that our difference in opinion here isn&#39;t so much in the concept I mean to convey, but merely in my use of the word &#8220;exist.&#8221;  If so, then fine.  Rather than arguing about how the word &#8220;exist&#8221; should be used, let&#39;s just avoid confusion and not use the word &#8220;exist.&#8221;  Let&#39;s not even use the word &#8220;real&#8221; since that seemed to cause just as much confusion earlier in this thread.  Let&#39;s just say that statements like, &#8220;It is right and obligitory for you to love your children,&#8221; and &#8220;It is wrong and forbidden for you to rape your mother&#8221; are objectively true statements.  And let&#39;s call these kinds of statements &#8220;moral statements,&#8221; and let&#39;s say that some moral statements are objectively true.  Will that work for you?  So here&#39;s my revised argument&#8211;the same argument, mind you, but reworded in hopes of being more clear:<br />
7.  If there is no God, then no moral statements are objectively true.<br />
8.  Some moral statements are objectively true.<br />
9.  Therefore, there is a God.<br />
Is that better?<br />
I suppose if I wanted to be silly, I could also quibble with your second and third points.  First, you say Premise A is incoherent, and then you say that to the extent that it&#39;s cognizable, it&#39;s false.  If it&#39;s incoherent, then it&#39;s not cognizable, and it can&#39;t be true <i>or</i> false.  To what extent is it cognizable anyway?  You gave the impression that it wasn&#39;t coherent at all.<br />
Anyway, I&#39;m just being silly.  Let me actually address what you said in your third point about Kant.<br />
Your third point seems to be dealing with epistemology, so it&#39;s irrelevent to my argument.  You seem to be arguing that since we can arrive at moral knowledge <i>a priori</i>, by reason alone, without an external source of that knowledge, then God isn&#39;t necessary for our moral knowledge.  This is irrelevent, because I haven&#39;t argued that God is necessary for our moral knowledge.  Rather, I have argued that God is necessary for there to be objective morals.<br />
I also think you&#39;re reasoning here is faulty, but I&#39;m resisting the urge to go into that since it&#39;s irrelevent and would only cause this discussion to get longer.<br />
Your third point is very interesting, though, because it seems to say exactly what Bill Craig said, yet you agree with Kant and disagree with Craig.  I say <i>seems</i> because I&#39;m not sure I understand everything you and Kant are saying.  But by saying morals are <i>a priori</i>, doesn&#39;t that mean that our moral knowledge comes immediately upon reflection?  That it isn&#39;t derived from anything empirical?  You quoted Kant as saying, &#8220;&#8230;proper mathematical judgments are a priori, and not empirical&#8230;&#8221;  If so, then <i>a priori</i> knowledge is the same thing as knowledge by intuition.<br />
If moral knowledge is <i>a priori</i> then doesn&#39;t that <i>support</i> Craig?  Kant and Craig both seems to be saying that we have an innate sense of moral obligation.  They both consider this <i>a priori</i> idea to be &#8220;knowledge.&#8221;  They&#39;re both saying we just happen to know moral rules, because our cognitive faculties are such that this knowledge is automatic.  I find it interesting that you would dispute Craig&#39;s argument (that we all have an innate sense of right and wrong, therefore objective moral values exist) when Kant seems to be saying the same thing.<br />
I get the impression toward the end of point three that you&#39;re confusing epistemology and ontology again.  The whole discussion about synthetic <i>a priori</i> judgements is a discussion about epistemology&#8211;how we know about morals and math, and how we can make moral and mathmatical judgments.  But then at the end you said, &#8220;Since no external lawgiver is necessary to make 7 + 5 equal to 12, similarly, no external lawgiver is necessary for&#8230;moral propositions that we also derive from human reason, acting alone.&#8221;  Surely you don&#39;t think our reason is what <i>causes</i> 7+5 to equal 12, do you?  The question you addressed (and Kant addressed) is not what makes 7 + 5 = 12, but how we <i>know</i> that 7 + 5 = 12.  Kant doesn&#39;t even address the question of what makes 7+5=12.  Nor does he address the question of what makes mother stabbing and father raping wrong.  He only addresses the question of how we know these things.  Your third point is irrelevent, because my moral argument for God deals with the ontological question of how there can be moral obligations, not the epistemological question of how we can know about them.<br />
Your fourth point is even more interesting than the third.  First, you say that Kant has shown that &#8220;human beings can derive objectively real truths through reason alone,&#8221; but then you said there is &#8220;no good reason to suppose that objective morality exists.&#8221;  How is it possible for Kant to show that we can derive objectively real truths about morals if there <i>are</i> no objective truths about morals?<br />
It may surprise you to find that I completely agree with Kant in this section. I suspect in this unusual case that it&#39;s <i>you</i> who has had a hard time understanding him.  Kant isn&#39;t arguing that morals are subjective.  If fact, he&#39;s saying just the opposite.  He&#39;s saying that our reason is able to objectively recognize morals are necessary, but our will is subjectively contingent.  That is, we can know that something is objectively and necessarily wrong, and yet because of our subjective impulses, our will may not act accordingly.  Many subjective conditions cause our will to act contrary to what our reason recognizes as objectively and necessarily right or wrong.<br />
I&#39;m afraid Kant isn&#39;t helping you out at all.  He seems to be on <i>my</i> side.<br />
In the fifth point, you&#39;re back to refuting the strawman that &#8220;if there is a conscience, then there is a God.&#8221;  You do it by showing how we might arrive at some ideal moral principles in the same way we arrive at an ideal liver&#8211;by observation and extrapolation.  I don&#39;t think the analogy really works, but since this argument is irrelevent, and I&#39;d like to shorten the discussion, I won&#39;t go into why.<br />
The sixth point is relevent, because I <i>did</i> say the moral law implies a moral law-giver.  If it doesn&#39;t imply a moral lawgiver, then my argument doesn&#39;t work.  You compared moral standards to standards of measurement.  I do think they are analogous in some ways which I&#39;ve mentioned on my blog, but they are not analogous in the way you need them to be.<br />
First, standards of measurements are conventions humans have agreed to.  If morals are also conventions humans have agreed to in the same way, then morals are not objective in the sense I&#39;ve been claiming.  Morals are culturally relative, since until fairly recently, standards of measurements have been culturally relative as well.  Since we are discussing whether an external lawgiver is necessary for objective moral values, your analogy doesn&#39;t work.  Your analogy doesn&#39;t explain objective moral values at all.  It only explains cuturally relative moral values.<br />
Second, the analogy doesn&#39;t work because moral standards entail values and rules people are obligated to follow, whereas standards of measurements don&#39;t.  Morals have qualities that standards of measurments don&#39;t, and these qualities that morals have are what make a lawgiver necessary.  I explained those qualities in the links I provided earlier, and why they necessitate a moral lawgiver.<br />
Third, even if we suppose the analogy works, surely it can&#39;t escape your notice that a standard of measurement can&#39;t exist without a person or body of persons dictating that something be the standard.  In a sense, that person or body of persons would have the be a lawgiver.  The standard of measurement is really their will since they decide what a yard or a meter will be.  They are the measurement lawgivers.  If morals and measurements are analogous in the way you need them to be, then morals require a moral law-giver(s) as well.<br />
Your seventh point is irrelevent, because it addresses the epistemological question of how we can know morals.  Your repeated use of &#8220;even if there are objective morals laws&#8230;&#8221; shows that your argument is irrelevent.  If there are objective moral laws, then my moral argument for God is sound.  It doesn&#39;t matter whether we know what they are or not.<br />
Incidentally, you also seem to be contradicting what you said before about Kant.  Kant showed that we have <i>a priori</i> knowledge about morals, and that morals are necessary and objective just like math.  He argued that we can know morals by reason alone.  But you seem to doubt our morals on the same basis that Kant believed in them.  You say, &#8220;we can&#39;t access those laws through anything except human reason,&#8221; as if that&#39;s some reason to doubt them.  Either you&#39;re contradicting yourself, or I&#39;ve got a misunderstanding.<br />
I have a pretty serious disagreement with your reasoning in your seventh point, but I&#39;m going to let that go for the same reasons I let some of my other disagreements go above.<br />
Your eighth point is actually the best one you made.  I think the Euthyphro dilemma is one of the best challenges to the moral argument for God.  If you read my arguments from the links I provided, though, you&#39;d see that I already addressed it.  In fact, the Euthyphro dilemma actually became part of my argument for God.<br />
Well that&#39;s it Andrew.  I may not respond again, because this response has taken me a few hours.  If I do respond, it won&#39;t be until next weekend, because that&#39;s really the only time I&#39;m going to have a few hours free.  Thanks for giving me something to think about.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://afcmin.org/ateam/473/the-radio-killed-the-bloggers/comment-page-1#comment-2200</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afcmin.org/ateam/?p=473#comment-2200</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Andrew, I appreciate you taking the time to write this.  You&#039;re going to have to give me some time to respond to it, though.  Be patient.  I won&#039;t forget about you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, I appreciate you taking the time to write this.  You&#39;re going to have to give me some time to respond to it, though.  Be patient.  I won&#39;t forget about you.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://afcmin.org/ateam/473/the-radio-killed-the-bloggers/comment-page-1#comment-2199</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afcmin.org/ateam/?p=473#comment-2199</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sam, the previous thread reached its &quot;reply&quot; limit, so I&#039;m replying down here.  As an overview, I think the argument from moral conscience is an incredibly poor, logically flawed argument for the existence of God -- notwithstanding its popularity in apologetics circles -- and I think you&#039;d be better served not relying on it.
I do apologize for not fleshing out my argument fully, and you&#039;re correct that I should have done a lot more than simply attach the Prolegomena.  I did not mean to hurl any elephants, so I&#039;ll attempt to do that now.  Please let me know if I am doing any violence to your initial 8-point proof and the attached links.
Premise (1) of that argument was as follows:
&quot;1. It&#039;s not possible for there to be a real difference between good and evil unless there is a God who is the standard by which good and evil are distinguished.&quot;
This is the Argument from Morality (AfM).  I clicked on the attached links, but I couldn&#039;t find anything that spelled out the argument with precision.  As near as I can tell, you were arguing something like:
&lt;u&gt;Axiom&lt;/u&gt;: There is an absolute, objective modality of moral thought that governs human behavior. 
&lt;u&gt;Premise A&lt;/u&gt;: Absolute, objective morality cannot exist without an external point of reference [definition of &#039;objective&#039;] 
&lt;u&gt;Premise B&lt;/u&gt;: Absolute, objective morality must exist in order to generate a modality of moral thought that governs human behavior 
&lt;u&gt;Therefore&lt;/u&gt;, an external point of reference exists; and 
&lt;u&gt;Probably&lt;/u&gt;, that external point of reference is God. 
Assuming this is a correct statement of your argument, I think there are two important structural considerations that guide any evaluation of it.  First, this AfM is an &lt;em&gt;eliminative inference&lt;/em&gt;; it has as an essential element to the syllogism the premise that nothing else can account for the existence of objective moral truths.  Thus, to defend the AfM, you must do more than simply assert that a God-ordained morality is &lt;em&gt;possible&lt;/em&gt;; you&#039;ve got to show that it is the &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; possible modality of moral thought.
Second, the AfM requires us to stipulate to a provision (the AfM Axiom) that is unsupported.  Your page links to an audio version of William Lane Craig&#039;s &lt;em&gt;The Absurdity of Life Without God&lt;/em&gt;; 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=129&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&#039;s a link to the transcript&lt;/a&gt;.  Craig&#039;s argument for the AfM Axiom is intuitive; we all have this innate sense that the Holocaust was morally wrong, for example.  I&#039;m willing to grant that for the sake of argument (and also because I personally believe it to be true) -- but it doesn&#039;t prove what you think it does.
With that in mind, there are at least six reasons to believe that sufficient other sources for moral conscience exist, as well as two additional independent reasons to doubt the veracity of the AfM.  Specifically:
1.  &lt;strong&gt;It&#039;s Tautological.&lt;/strong&gt;  The AfM Axiom simply assumes that objective morality exists, but the justification doesn&#039;t match up with the conclusion.  Craig&#039;s intuition is on the order of, &quot;Well, don&#039;t you want to have some system where we can actually criticize Hitler for what he did? Or is it all subjective?&quot; This jab, however, doesn&#039;t seriously undermine a rigorous, though non-objective moral framework such as &lt;a href=&quot;http://ateam.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/8/13/2228375.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the situational ethics of Dietrich Bonhoeffer&lt;/a&gt; or &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situation_ethics&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Joseph Fletcher&lt;/a&gt;, both of whom are committed Christians who made a real difference in the world.  Since Bonhoeffer was part of the &quot;Officer&#039;s Plot&quot; to kill Hitler, the notion that situational ethics cannot condemn Nazism seems pretty hollow.
Nor does it undermine a similarly rigorous philosophy of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition_%28knowledge%29#Intuition_in_philosophy&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;intuitionism&lt;/a&gt; (you can &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_intuitionism&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;also click here&lt;/a&gt; for more information).  Why do we have an intuitive conception that certain actions are beyond the pale? Because we have intuition as a function of the physical human brain, and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wickedness.net/humbach.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;evolutionary psychologists can give a detailed naturalistic account of the survival value of moral intuitions that does not depend upon their being &quot;objectively true&quot; or externally created.&lt;/a&gt;  So almost all humans will find the Holocaust intuitively morally repugnant in the same way that almost all humans will find excruciating pain undesirable. Those at the margins -- Nazis and masochists -- we can identify as marginal.
Thus, we see two conclusions to this first response, either of which are sufficient to disprove the AfM.  First, non-objective moral modalities can condemn the Holocaust; they simply use human-made standards to do so.  Human ethical evaluations of inalienable dignity, a right to life, a protection of political freedom, a feminist ethic of care, a commitment to non-violence: all of these ethics would rebuke genocidal atrocity. Yes, they do so based on human reason and situational decision making. But why is that any less valid? Of what benefit is it to say, &quot;not only do I condemn the Holocaust, but I condemn it in such a fashion that could still hold up if history and human thought bore absolutely no resemblance to the manner in which they exist today&quot;? 
So what you must do in relying upon the AfM is disprove the viability of non-absolute modalities of moral thought, including intuitionism and situational ethics.
But secondly, and most importantly, the AfM commits the naturalistic fallacy.  As much as we might wish otherwise, it is entirely possible that the universe is not morally comprehensible and that atrocity can not actually be comprehended or reasoned with in a comprehensive way.  When one just asserts that they find such a potential state of affairs unpleasant, that doesn&#039;t warrant why objective moral law must exist.
2.  &lt;strong&gt;Premise A is Incoherent&lt;/strong&gt;.  This is the beginning of the Kantian analysis I glossed over before.  Saying that absolute morality &quot;exists&quot; is a claim on the same order as saying that absolute morality is &quot;red.&quot; Morality is a methodology of evaluating claims, but it doesn&#039;t have an independent existence in the same way that, say, mangoes do. 
Similarly: Absolute &quot;twelve&quot; does not exist as some sort of Platonic form. We can say that there are twelve of an object, or that so-and-so is twelve years old, and those statements (a) have veridical content and (b) are objective across all observers. So it doesn&#039;t make sense to require that one kind of abstraction &quot;really exist&quot; (whatever that means) while another one does not.
Thus, even if humans all had the exact same moral conscience producing the exact same answers to the exact same dilemmas (which obviously isn&#039;t the case), that wouldn&#039;t necessitate that some independent objective moral standard exists any more than the fact that we can all agree that 7 + 5 = 12 means that some absolute &quot;12&quot; exists somewhere. 
Because &quot;objective morality exists&quot; is an undefined and meaningless phrase, we need not even evaluate the central premise of the AfM -- that objective moral laws requires a moral lawgiver. Until you can tell us what it means for an abstraction to &quot;exist,&quot; this is all just whistling past the graveyard. 
3.  &lt;strong&gt;To the extent Premise A is cognizable, it is false&lt;/strong&gt;.  This is the rest of the Kantian analysis.  We know that no external referent is necessary to generate absolutes of human thought. Immanuel Kant&#039;s Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics describes how pure human reason, operating without any external stimuli, can generate maxims that are true a priori. More specifically, Kant shows how our reason, unaided, can generate synthetic propositions -- those that add to our body of knowledge -- in addition to purely analytical ones. 
An analytical proposition is one in which the conclusion is contained entirely within the predicate; for example, that &quot;no four-sided triangles exist.&quot; This statement is trivially true a priori, because triangles are defined as having three sides. 
But Kant shows that our reason alone can derive synthetic a priori maxims as well.  In the Prolegomena, &lt;a href=&quot;http://philosophy.eserver.org/kant-prolegomena.txt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Immanuel Kant explains:&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
First of all, we must observe that all proper mathematical judgments are a priori, and not empirical, because they carry with them necessity, which cannot be obtained from experience. But if this be not conceded to me, very good; I shall confine my assertion pure Mathematics, the very notion of which implies that it contains pure a priori and not empirical cognitions. 
It might at first be thought that the proposition 7 + 5 = 12 is a mere analytical judgment, following from the concept of the sum of seven and five, according to the law of contradiction. But on closer examination it appears that the concept of the sum of 7+5 contains merely their union in a single number, without its being at all thought what the particular number is that unites them. The concept of twelve is by no means thought by merely thinking of the combination of seven and five; and analyze this possible sum as we may, we shall not discover twelve in the concept. We must go beyond these concepts, by calling to our aid some concrete image [Anschauung], i.e., either our five fingers, or five points (as Segner has it in his Arithmetic), and we must add successively the units of the five, given in some concrete image [Anschauung], to the concept of seven. Hence our concept is really amplified by the proposition 7 + 5 = 12, and we add to the first a second, not thought in it. Arithmetical judgments are therefore synthetical, and the more plainly according as we take larger numbers; for in such cases it is clear that, however closely we analyze our concepts without calling visual images (Anscliauung) to our aid, we can never find the sum by such mere dissection.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The most important aspect of understanding Kantian epistemology with respect to the AfM is that moral claims are simply synthetic a priori propositions.  In other words, there is no epistemic distinction between some kinds of synthetic a priori judgments (i.e., moral judgments) and others (i.e., mathematics).  Three citations from Kant should suffice:
a. In the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=10995&amp;pageno=17&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals&lt;/a&gt; (reasonably readable, for Kant), Kant explains that moral principles are fully defined by the concept of synthetic a priori judgments, just as in mathematics: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Kant 1:
[T]hese principles are to be found altogether a priori, free from everything empirical, in pure rational concepts only and nowhere else, not even in the smallest degree; then rather to adopt the method of making this a separate inquiry, as pure practical philosophy, or (if one may use a name so decried) as metaphysic of morals,(*) to bring it by itself to completeness, and to require the public, which wishes for popular treatment, to await the issue of this undertaking. 
(*) Just as pure mathematics are distinguished from applied, pure logic from applied, so if we choose we may also distinguish pure philosophy of morals (metaphysic) from applied (viz., applied to human nature). By this designation we are also at once reminded that moral principles are not based on properties of human nature, but must subsist a priori of themselves, while from such principles practical rules must be capable of being deduced for every rational nature, and accordingly for that of man. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
b. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=10995&amp;pageno=23&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Later, Kant refutes the false distinction&lt;/a&gt; that mathematical synthetic a priori statements somehow aren&#039;t &quot;prescriptive&quot; whereas moral judgments are.
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Kant 2:	 
Now arises the question, how are all these imperatives possible? This question does not seek to know how we can conceive the accomplishment of the action which the imperative ordains, but merely how we can conceive the obligation of the will which the imperative expresses. No special explanation is needed to show how an imperative of skill is possible. Whoever wills the end, wills also (so far as reason decides his conduct) the means in his power which are indispensably necessary thereto. This proposition is, as regards the volition, analytical; for, in willing an object as my effect, there is already thought the causality of myself as an acting cause, that is to say, the use of the means; and the imperative reduces from the conception of volition of an end the conception of actions necessary to this end. Synthetical propositions must no doubt be employed in defining the means to a proposed end; but they do not concern the principle, the act of the will, but the object and its realization. E.g., that in order to bisect a line on an unerring principle I must draw from its extremities two intersecting arcs; this no doubt is taught by mathematics only in synthetical propositions; but if I know that it is only by this process that the intended operation can be performed, then to say that, if I fully will the operation, I also will the action required for it, is an analytical proposition; for it is one and the same thing to conceive something as an effect which I can produce in a certain way, and to conceive myself as acting in this way. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
c.  Thus, Kant concludes, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=10995&amp;pageno=24&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the Categorical Imperative is a synthetic, a priori judgment&lt;/a&gt;.
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Kant 3:	 
We shall therefore have to investigate a priori the possibility of a categorical imperative, as we have not in this case the advantage of its reality being given in experience, so that [the elucidation of] its possibility should be requisite only for its explanation, not for its establishment. In the meantime it may be discerned beforehand that the categorical imperative alone has the purport of a practical law; all the rest may indeed be called principles of the will but not laws, since whatever is only necessary for the attainment of some arbitrary purpose may be considered as in itself contingent, and we can at any time be free from the precept if we give up the purpose; on the contrary, the unconditional command leaves the will no liberty to choose the opposite; consequently it alone carries with it that necessity which we require in a law. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Secondly, in the case of this categorical imperative or law of morality, the difficulty (of discerning its possibility) is a very profound one. It is an a priori synthetical practical proposition;(*) and as there is so much difficulty in discerning the possibility of speculative propositions of this kind, it may readily be supposed that the difficulty will be no less with the practical. 
(*) I connect the act with the will without presupposing any condition resulting from any inclination, but a priori, and therefore necessarily (though only objectively, i.e., assuming the idea of a reason possessing full power over all subjective motives). This is accordingly a practical proposition which does not deduce the willing of an action by mere analysis from another already presupposed (for we have not such a perfect will), but connects it immediately with the conception of the will of a rational being, as something not contained in it. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
To try and simplify: for Kant, all synthetic a priori judgments are &quot;prescriptive,&quot; because they are &quot;unconditional commands&quot; that give our minds &quot;no liberty to choose the opposite.&quot; I cannot will myself to believe that 7 + 5 = 238; it thus operates as a &quot;command&quot; equal in force to moral imperatives. 
Applying those imperatives to particular situations is, as Kant suggests in Kant 2 above, simply an operation of our contingent practical faculties; that&#039;s what he means when he says that &quot;whoever wills the end, wills also the means in his power which are indispensably necessary thereto.&quot; 
I know this is tough stuff, but the bottom line is that the prerequisites to &quot;objective morality&quot; are simply: (1) the ability to ascertain moral truths a priori, which Kant shows is possible without any external referent, and (2) the subjective and contingent condition of the human brain to carry out the will. No third party is necessary. 
For Kant, then, I recognize that lying is wrong in exactly the same way that I recognize that the proposition 7 + 5 = 238 is wrong. I may nonetheless choose to lie anyway for personal gain recognizing that my action contradicts my will. Similarly, I may choose to act on 7 + 5 = 238 for personal gain -- e.g., in filling out my deductions on my income tax -- and I similarly recognize that I have willed an internal contradiction.  Thus, one of Kant&#039;s major contributions to the world of metaphysics was the insight that both kinds of statements have equal force from the same source: pure human reason. 
Since no external lawgiver is necessary to make 7 + 5 equal to 12, similarly, no external lawgiver is necessary for the synthetic a priori moral propositions that we also derive from human reason, acting alone.
4.  &lt;strong&gt;To the extent it is cognizable, Premise A is internally contradictory.&lt;/strong&gt;  In addition to showing us that human beings can derive objectively real truths through reason alone, Kant also shows us that the AfM -- in which individuals merely apply moral principles previously dictated by God -- actually renders the resulting moral will subjective rather than objective.
Thus, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=10995&amp;pageno=19&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kant demonstratres in the &lt;em&gt;Groundwork&lt;/em&gt; that the application of preexisting substrata renders morality contingent, rather than objective&lt;/a&gt;: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Kant 4:	 
Everything in nature works according to laws. Rational beings alone have the faculty of acting according to the conception of laws, that is according to principles, i.e., have a will. Since the deduction of actions from principles requires reason, the will is nothing but practical reason. If reason infallibly determines the will, then the actions of such a being which are recognized as objectively necessary are subjectively necessary also, i.e., the will is a faculty to choose that only which reason independent of inclination recognizes as practically necessary, i.e., as good. But if reason of itself does not sufficiently determine the will, if the latter is subject also to subjective conditions (particular impulses) which do not always coincide with the objective conditions; in a word, if the will does not in itself completely accord with reason (which is actually the case with men), then the actions which objectively are recognized as necessary are subjectively contingent, and the determination of such a will according to objective laws is obligation, that is to say, the relation of the objective laws to a will that is not thoroughly good is conceived as the determination of the will of a rational being by principles of reason, but which the will from its nature does not of necessity follow. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Thus: if morality is just applying the laws God independently set forth, then our reason becomes subjectively contingent; i.e., non-objective.  As Kant says, &quot;if reason of itself does not sufficiently determine the will.. then the actions which objectively are recognized as necessary are subjectively contingent,&quot; and hence, morality would not flow of necessity from human existence.  The AfM is self-defeating. 
These four arguments show that we now have good reasons to reject both the fundamental axiom and the first premise of the AfM. Not only is there no good reason to suppose that objective morality exists, but even if there were, we wouldn&#039;t need to posit some objective lawgiver to explain its existence.
But the second premise of the AfM is false, too:
5.  &lt;strong&gt;Premise B is empirically false&lt;/strong&gt;.  On face, Premise B seems intuitively true, even trivial -- for a yardstick to be &quot;objective,&quot; the stick itself must not change from object to object being measured. So too, proponents reason, must there be a Single Universal Absolute Truth in order to judge different propositions. 
Think about it more closely, however, and you&#039;ll see that this intuitive move is contrary to our everyday experience. For example: a medical textbook will display a &quot;textbook&quot; human body against which the doctor can measure diseases; the textbook will show what an ideal liver looks like, an ideal heart, an ideal brain, etc., etc. No single person has to exist with all -- or even any -- of these characteristics in order for us to diagnose a diseased liver. We know what an ideal liver looks like from looking at millions of human livers, even though no individual liver is perfect. 
Similarly, we can develop an ideal, absolute moral yardstick from our collective lifetimes of reviewing human behaviors, even though no perfect human exists to serve as the embodiment of that yardstick. 
To put it most simply: intersubjectivity is a valid basis for adjudicating judgments.  Our experience tells us that you can produce invariant, objective standards from an aggregation of numerous subjective a posteriori sources. When you go to the doctor, he doesn&#039;t say, &quot;Well, what counts as a healthy liver depends upon the circumstances.&quot; No; he says, &quot;This is an idealized conception of what a healthy liver should look like,&quot; and then uses that absolute yardstick as a touchstone for ascertaining where your particular liver diverges from the good. 
Every liver deviates from the ideal liver in some way; some more than others. Thus, no one liver is ideal to use as a yardstick. But from the intersubjective comparison of lots of livers, we can come up with an idealized liver to use when evaluating individual livers on a case-by-case basis. 
Similarly, every human being&#039;s moral behavior deviates from the ideal of morality in some way; some more than others. Thus, no one human being is ideal to use as a yardstick. But, from the intersubjective comparison of lots of humans, we can come up with an idealized moral code to use when evaluating human behavior on a case-by-case basis and that&#039;s all we need to do in order to condemn the Holocaust.  No &quot;perfect morality&quot; need exist just as no &quot;perfect liver&quot; need exist.
In a way, this is the antithesis of the ontological argument; one empirically valid method for deriving perfection is the aggregation of non-perfect things to develop an ideal from which those individual deviations can be measured.
Now, these five arguments have set forth numerous sufficient alternatives to explain the basis of human conscience -- intuitionism, situational ethics, Kantianism, and now intersubjectivity.  It should be clear that the AfM&#039;s eliminative inference is not justified.
6.  &lt;strong&gt;An &quot;External Referent&quot; Need Not Be A &quot;Lawgiver&quot;&lt;/strong&gt;.  In your formulation, I notice that instead of &quot;external referent,&quot; you supplant Premise A with a much more narrow requirement that morals not only require something external but an external &lt;em&gt;lawgiver&lt;/em&gt;.
But an external referent capable of making a yardstick consistent from person to person need not be the source of that measuring device. For example, a meter is &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; defined by the International Bureau of Weights and Measures as the distance travelled by light in absolute vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second&lt;/a&gt;; prior to that, it was defined by reference to a platinum-iridium bar kept at 0 degrees Celsius. In order for a meter to be constant from measured item to measured item, a separate thing must exist that is invariant of the two items. That&#039;s all. Meters are not &quot;made&quot; or ordained by light or platinum-iridium. 
Thus, at most, all the AfM would prove is that some non-human observer exists. It doesn&#039;t prove that the external referent is the source (or &quot;divine will&quot;) of the moral law.  And remember the burden under the AfM; one has to show that no other moral system is conceivable. 
These six arguments now cover virtually every contingency. I&#039;ve shown that there&#039;s no basis for the assertion that objective morality must exist. If you don&#039;t accept that, I&#039;ve shown that the assertion is undefined. If you don&#039;t accept that, I&#039;ve shown that the assertion doesn&#039;t require any external referent but can be derived from human reason alone, in two ways. And now, even if you don&#039;t accept &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt;, I&#039;ve shown that the external referent need not be a lawgiver but can be merely a non-human observer. 
Given the utter failure of the logical structure of the AfM, the next two arguments (7) and (8) provide two independent reasons to reject the principles behind AfM as well.
7.  &lt;strong&gt;Inter-Christian disagreements over basic moral questions illustrate that absolute morality cannot practically exist,&lt;/strong&gt; because even if absolute truths had an independent moral existence, they would still have to be filtered through the same human rationality that&#039;s available to non-Christians.
Even if one accepts the axiom that there is an external absolute, objective morality that governs human behavior, the AfM is silent as to how a nonabsolute, subjective individual is supposed to access that absolute moral standard. even if we presuppose that the moral law is given by God as revealed in the Bible, that really means that the law is given by what we &lt;em&gt;think&lt;/em&gt; God wants as revealed in the Bible as &lt;em&gt;we&lt;/em&gt; interpret it, filtered by our own rationality.
This is a pretty straightforward argument; it says that even if there are objective moral laws out there somewhere, we can&#039;t access those laws through anything except human reason. Thus, the most a human being can say is, &quot;I&#039;m pretty sure God&#039;s laws exist, and I&#039;m pretty sure this is what they are.&quot; 
The problems are two-fold.  First, the AfM is self-contradictory, because theists contradict themselves on basic moral principles.  Suppose a homosexual and wants to know whether or not he should be &quot;reeducated&quot; in such a way as to renounce his homosexuality (e.g., through something like Project Exodus International). Now, some large number of people can quote Scripture and tell that person why God definitely, absolutely thinks homosexuals are an abomination and therefore why the individual should go through extreme measures to change his homosexual behavior. But a similarly large number of people, citing the &lt;em&gt;exact same set of Scripture&lt;/em&gt;, will tell him to do the exact opposite! 
On the other hand, there is really no secular arguments that I know of for why homosexuality is bad, and no secular reasons for a person to torture himself to stop practicing consensual homosexual behavior.  So, this is another turn.  if you&#039;re looking for absolute morality on the question of homosexuality, then Biblical morality is less helpful to you than secular morality.
And the same is true for many other ethical issues. At worst -- on say, progressive taxation or the Kyoto treaty or whatever -- the secularists are just as divided as Christians. But at best -- on interracial dating and marriage, on homosexuality, on equality and the role of women, on the use of contraceptives to stop the spread of AIDS in Africa, on embryonic stem cell research, and so on -- secular morality gives you a relatively unanimous, relatively clear answer whereas disputes within Christianity gives you a muddle.
Second, when we explore why different theists come to different answers on fundamental moral questions, we realize that the criterion theists use to differentiate between different theistic propositions is one of secular human reason!  The way in which we authenticate revelation -- i.e., how we determine that Charles Manson or Andrea Yates have not really &quot;spoken&quot; to God -- is through reason.  Thus, even theists concede that ordinary human reason is lexically prior to divine revelation.  
Of course, each person fervently believes that his subjective reading of Scripture is correct and that all other readings are wrong. But -- and this is the critical part -- that justification is made not by reference to divine intervention, but solely by the application of the Christian&#039;s own rational processes. In other words, when someone says that his reading of a particular verse of Scripture is incorrect, he doesn&#039;t say, &quot;I know I&#039;m right because God told me,&quot; he says, &quot;I know I&#039;m right because I have more rigorously and more intelligently analyzed Scripture.&quot;  This methodology shows that the whole AfM collapses like a house of cards. If human rationality is the filter through which absolute morality is processed, then we&#039;re all implicitly conceding that a non-Christian moral schema -- which draws directly from human reason, acting alone -- is superior to a theistic one.  And that seems contradictory, to say the least.
In any event, if rigorous analysis, logical thought, and ordinary human intelligence is sufficient to evaluate whether God wills X or not-X, then it is also sufficient to evaluate whether X is good in the first place. It is no longer necessary to invent a God to have decreed X (or not-X), since you evaluate between X and not-X by reason alone anyway. 
In short:  internecine Christian disagreements -- from political issues such as capital punishment, abortion, homosexuality, interracial marriage, birth control, and so on -- to spiritual issues such as salvation by faith alone (or by good works), the existence and nature of the Trinity, the existence and nature of Hell, and so on, demonstrate conclusively that even if absolute morality existed in some external referent (e.g., God), there would still be no reliable way to know that the true moral law had accurately communicated to you or that you had divined it correctly from studying Scripture. 
8.  Finally, &lt;strong&gt;The Euthyphro Dilemma&lt;/strong&gt; stands as a strong independent objection to the AfM.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/euthyfro.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Plato, pretending to be Socrates, succinctly articulated the conceptual problem with this argument about 2500 years ago in the Euthyphro&lt;/a&gt;: is an action &quot;moral&quot; simply because God commands it, or does God command it because it is independently moral? 
Instantly, you see the problem. If you select the first option, then morality is arbitrary, based merely upon god&#039;s whim. Had God decreed that murder, rape, torture, and genocide were moral, then we would be obligated to behave in that fashion and Hitler would have been the paragon of virtue. 
More broadly, such a view of morality renders the statement &quot;God is good&quot; tautological, because &quot;good&quot; is simply another word for &quot;whatever God does.&quot; Worse, we are left with a sole warrant for all moral behavior -- that we are to do or not do something based on whether God has commanded or forbidden it. Thus, we cannot adjudicate how to weigh moral principles in conflict because we cannot claim that one moral obligation is superior to another. 
For example (following Wittgenstein and Nagel&#039;s criticisms of Kant), if I am harboring Jews in my attic and the Gestapo show up at my door asking if I am harboring any Jews, I need to prioritize the moral principle of telling the truth versus the moral principle of not handing innocents over to be tortured and killed.  If I have an independent basis for morality rooted in my reason, then I can weigh one principle over another.  But if you are a Christian who holds that something is wrong &lt;em&gt;merely and solely because God commanded it&lt;/em&gt;, then you have no basis to say that one act of divine disobedience is better or worse than another. And thus morality becomes meaningless. 
To be clear:  the argument is not that God&#039;s decrees are bad because they can, could, or would change.  The argument is that even if God&#039;s will never changes, it&#039;s still arbitrary.  There are then at least three impacts as to why arbitrariness is bad when it comes to evaluating moral schema:
a.  Arbitrariness is bad because it contradicts the premise underlying the AfM in the first place; that is, that there is some framework by which we can say Hitler is bad. But we can only say Hitler is bad because God happened to decree that genocide was evil in this universe by fiat. Had God decided that genocide was good, then Hitler would be a saint. So again, we see an internal contradiction:  the AfM is less able to produce what the AfM says it produces -- a basis to decry Hitler. 
b.  Arbitrariness is bad because it&#039;s tautological. Saying &quot;God is good&quot; then becomes the equivalent of saying &quot;this triangle has three sides,&quot; which, although true, is only an analytical proposition and thus is of no veridical content. 
c.  Finally, arbitrariness is bad because it assigns all moral propositions the same intrinsic weight because those propositions are only valuable because God says so. Then, I tell you that kind of equivocal value is bad, because it doesn&#039;t let you resolve real-world dilemmas.
On the other hand, if you select the second option and hold that there are independent moral goods that exist regardless of what God commands, then while you avoid the harms of arbitrariness, you also concede that the AfM is false in the first place.  All the response to the AfM need show is that morality is possible without God; the phrase &quot;God is good&quot; then, ironically enough, becomes sufficient proof of that.
I apologize for the length but hopefully this clears things up.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam, the previous thread reached its &#8220;reply&#8221; limit, so I&#39;m replying down here.  As an overview, I think the argument from moral conscience is an incredibly poor, logically flawed argument for the existence of God &#8212; notwithstanding its popularity in apologetics circles &#8212; and I think you&#39;d be better served not relying on it.<br />
I do apologize for not fleshing out my argument fully, and you&#39;re correct that I should have done a lot more than simply attach the Prolegomena.  I did not mean to hurl any elephants, so I&#39;ll attempt to do that now.  Please let me know if I am doing any violence to your initial 8-point proof and the attached links.<br />
Premise (1) of that argument was as follows:<br />
&#8220;1. It&#39;s not possible for there to be a real difference between good and evil unless there is a God who is the standard by which good and evil are distinguished.&#8221;<br />
This is the Argument from Morality (AfM).  I clicked on the attached links, but I couldn&#39;t find anything that spelled out the argument with precision.  As near as I can tell, you were arguing something like:<br />
<u>Axiom</u>: There is an absolute, objective modality of moral thought that governs human behavior.<br />
<u>Premise A</u>: Absolute, objective morality cannot exist without an external point of reference [definition of &#39;objective&#39;]<br />
<u>Premise B</u>: Absolute, objective morality must exist in order to generate a modality of moral thought that governs human behavior<br />
<u>Therefore</u>, an external point of reference exists; and<br />
<u>Probably</u>, that external point of reference is God.<br />
Assuming this is a correct statement of your argument, I think there are two important structural considerations that guide any evaluation of it.  First, this AfM is an <em>eliminative inference</em>; it has as an essential element to the syllogism the premise that nothing else can account for the existence of objective moral truths.  Thus, to defend the AfM, you must do more than simply assert that a God-ordained morality is <em>possible</em>; you&#39;ve got to show that it is the <i>only</i> possible modality of moral thought.<br />
Second, the AfM requires us to stipulate to a provision (the AfM Axiom) that is unsupported.  Your page links to an audio version of William Lane Craig&#39;s <em>The Absurdity of Life Without God</em>;<br />
<a href="http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=129" rel="nofollow">here&#39;s a link to the transcript</a>.  Craig&#39;s argument for the AfM Axiom is intuitive; we all have this innate sense that the Holocaust was morally wrong, for example.  I&#39;m willing to grant that for the sake of argument (and also because I personally believe it to be true) &#8212; but it doesn&#39;t prove what you think it does.<br />
With that in mind, there are at least six reasons to believe that sufficient other sources for moral conscience exist, as well as two additional independent reasons to doubt the veracity of the AfM.  Specifically:<br />
1.  <strong>It&#39;s Tautological.</strong>  The AfM Axiom simply assumes that objective morality exists, but the justification doesn&#39;t match up with the conclusion.  Craig&#39;s intuition is on the order of, &#8220;Well, don&#39;t you want to have some system where we can actually criticize Hitler for what he did? Or is it all subjective?&#8221; This jab, however, doesn&#39;t seriously undermine a rigorous, though non-objective moral framework such as <a href="http://ateam.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/8/13/2228375.html" rel="nofollow">the situational ethics of Dietrich Bonhoeffer</a> or <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situation_ethics" rel="nofollow">Joseph Fletcher</a>, both of whom are committed Christians who made a real difference in the world.  Since Bonhoeffer was part of the &#8220;Officer&#39;s Plot&#8221; to kill Hitler, the notion that situational ethics cannot condemn Nazism seems pretty hollow.<br />
Nor does it undermine a similarly rigorous philosophy of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition_%28knowledge%29#Intuition_in_philosophy" rel="nofollow">intuitionism</a> (you can <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_intuitionism" rel="nofollow">also click here</a> for more information).  Why do we have an intuitive conception that certain actions are beyond the pale? Because we have intuition as a function of the physical human brain, and <a href="http://www.wickedness.net/humbach.pdf" rel="nofollow">evolutionary psychologists can give a detailed naturalistic account of the survival value of moral intuitions that does not depend upon their being &#8220;objectively true&#8221; or externally created.</a>  So almost all humans will find the Holocaust intuitively morally repugnant in the same way that almost all humans will find excruciating pain undesirable. Those at the margins &#8212; Nazis and masochists &#8212; we can identify as marginal.<br />
Thus, we see two conclusions to this first response, either of which are sufficient to disprove the AfM.  First, non-objective moral modalities can condemn the Holocaust; they simply use human-made standards to do so.  Human ethical evaluations of inalienable dignity, a right to life, a protection of political freedom, a feminist ethic of care, a commitment to non-violence: all of these ethics would rebuke genocidal atrocity. Yes, they do so based on human reason and situational decision making. But why is that any less valid? Of what benefit is it to say, &#8220;not only do I condemn the Holocaust, but I condemn it in such a fashion that could still hold up if history and human thought bore absolutely no resemblance to the manner in which they exist today&#8221;?<br />
So what you must do in relying upon the AfM is disprove the viability of non-absolute modalities of moral thought, including intuitionism and situational ethics.<br />
But secondly, and most importantly, the AfM commits the naturalistic fallacy.  As much as we might wish otherwise, it is entirely possible that the universe is not morally comprehensible and that atrocity can not actually be comprehended or reasoned with in a comprehensive way.  When one just asserts that they find such a potential state of affairs unpleasant, that doesn&#39;t warrant why objective moral law must exist.<br />
2.  <strong>Premise A is Incoherent</strong>.  This is the beginning of the Kantian analysis I glossed over before.  Saying that absolute morality &#8220;exists&#8221; is a claim on the same order as saying that absolute morality is &#8220;red.&#8221; Morality is a methodology of evaluating claims, but it doesn&#39;t have an independent existence in the same way that, say, mangoes do.<br />
Similarly: Absolute &#8220;twelve&#8221; does not exist as some sort of Platonic form. We can say that there are twelve of an object, or that so-and-so is twelve years old, and those statements (a) have veridical content and (b) are objective across all observers. So it doesn&#39;t make sense to require that one kind of abstraction &#8220;really exist&#8221; (whatever that means) while another one does not.<br />
Thus, even if humans all had the exact same moral conscience producing the exact same answers to the exact same dilemmas (which obviously isn&#39;t the case), that wouldn&#39;t necessitate that some independent objective moral standard exists any more than the fact that we can all agree that 7 + 5 = 12 means that some absolute &#8220;12&#8221; exists somewhere.<br />
Because &#8220;objective morality exists&#8221; is an undefined and meaningless phrase, we need not even evaluate the central premise of the AfM &#8212; that objective moral laws requires a moral lawgiver. Until you can tell us what it means for an abstraction to &#8220;exist,&#8221; this is all just whistling past the graveyard.<br />
3.  <strong>To the extent Premise A is cognizable, it is false</strong>.  This is the rest of the Kantian analysis.  We know that no external referent is necessary to generate absolutes of human thought. Immanuel Kant&#39;s Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics describes how pure human reason, operating without any external stimuli, can generate maxims that are true a priori. More specifically, Kant shows how our reason, unaided, can generate synthetic propositions &#8212; those that add to our body of knowledge &#8212; in addition to purely analytical ones.<br />
An analytical proposition is one in which the conclusion is contained entirely within the predicate; for example, that &#8220;no four-sided triangles exist.&#8221; This statement is trivially true a priori, because triangles are defined as having three sides.<br />
But Kant shows that our reason alone can derive synthetic a priori maxims as well.  In the Prolegomena, <a href="http://philosophy.eserver.org/kant-prolegomena.txt" rel="nofollow">Immanuel Kant explains:</a></p>
<blockquote><p>
First of all, we must observe that all proper mathematical judgments are a priori, and not empirical, because they carry with them necessity, which cannot be obtained from experience. But if this be not conceded to me, very good; I shall confine my assertion pure Mathematics, the very notion of which implies that it contains pure a priori and not empirical cognitions.<br />
It might at first be thought that the proposition 7 + 5 = 12 is a mere analytical judgment, following from the concept of the sum of seven and five, according to the law of contradiction. But on closer examination it appears that the concept of the sum of 7+5 contains merely their union in a single number, without its being at all thought what the particular number is that unites them. The concept of twelve is by no means thought by merely thinking of the combination of seven and five; and analyze this possible sum as we may, we shall not discover twelve in the concept. We must go beyond these concepts, by calling to our aid some concrete image [Anschauung], i.e., either our five fingers, or five points (as Segner has it in his Arithmetic), and we must add successively the units of the five, given in some concrete image [Anschauung], to the concept of seven. Hence our concept is really amplified by the proposition 7 + 5 = 12, and we add to the first a second, not thought in it. Arithmetical judgments are therefore synthetical, and the more plainly according as we take larger numbers; for in such cases it is clear that, however closely we analyze our concepts without calling visual images (Anscliauung) to our aid, we can never find the sum by such mere dissection.
</p></blockquote>
<p>The most important aspect of understanding Kantian epistemology with respect to the AfM is that moral claims are simply synthetic a priori propositions.  In other words, there is no epistemic distinction between some kinds of synthetic a priori judgments (i.e., moral judgments) and others (i.e., mathematics).  Three citations from Kant should suffice:<br />
a. In the <a href="http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=10995&#038;pageno=17" rel="nofollow">Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals</a> (reasonably readable, for Kant), Kant explains that moral principles are fully defined by the concept of synthetic a priori judgments, just as in mathematics: </p>
<blockquote><p>
Kant 1:<br />
[T]hese principles are to be found altogether a priori, free from everything empirical, in pure rational concepts only and nowhere else, not even in the smallest degree; then rather to adopt the method of making this a separate inquiry, as pure practical philosophy, or (if one may use a name so decried) as metaphysic of morals,(*) to bring it by itself to completeness, and to require the public, which wishes for popular treatment, to await the issue of this undertaking.<br />
(*) Just as pure mathematics are distinguished from applied, pure logic from applied, so if we choose we may also distinguish pure philosophy of morals (metaphysic) from applied (viz., applied to human nature). By this designation we are also at once reminded that moral principles are not based on properties of human nature, but must subsist a priori of themselves, while from such principles practical rules must be capable of being deduced for every rational nature, and accordingly for that of man.
</p></blockquote>
<p>b. <a href="http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=10995&#038;pageno=23" rel="nofollow">Later, Kant refutes the false distinction</a> that mathematical synthetic a priori statements somehow aren&#39;t &#8220;prescriptive&#8221; whereas moral judgments are.</p>
<blockquote><p>
Kant 2:<br />
Now arises the question, how are all these imperatives possible? This question does not seek to know how we can conceive the accomplishment of the action which the imperative ordains, but merely how we can conceive the obligation of the will which the imperative expresses. No special explanation is needed to show how an imperative of skill is possible. Whoever wills the end, wills also (so far as reason decides his conduct) the means in his power which are indispensably necessary thereto. This proposition is, as regards the volition, analytical; for, in willing an object as my effect, there is already thought the causality of myself as an acting cause, that is to say, the use of the means; and the imperative reduces from the conception of volition of an end the conception of actions necessary to this end. Synthetical propositions must no doubt be employed in defining the means to a proposed end; but they do not concern the principle, the act of the will, but the object and its realization. E.g., that in order to bisect a line on an unerring principle I must draw from its extremities two intersecting arcs; this no doubt is taught by mathematics only in synthetical propositions; but if I know that it is only by this process that the intended operation can be performed, then to say that, if I fully will the operation, I also will the action required for it, is an analytical proposition; for it is one and the same thing to conceive something as an effect which I can produce in a certain way, and to conceive myself as acting in this way.
</p></blockquote>
<p>c.  Thus, Kant concludes, <a href="http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=10995&#038;pageno=24" rel="nofollow">the Categorical Imperative is a synthetic, a priori judgment</a>.</p>
<blockquote><p>
Kant 3:<br />
We shall therefore have to investigate a priori the possibility of a categorical imperative, as we have not in this case the advantage of its reality being given in experience, so that [the elucidation of] its possibility should be requisite only for its explanation, not for its establishment. In the meantime it may be discerned beforehand that the categorical imperative alone has the purport of a practical law; all the rest may indeed be called principles of the will but not laws, since whatever is only necessary for the attainment of some arbitrary purpose may be considered as in itself contingent, and we can at any time be free from the precept if we give up the purpose; on the contrary, the unconditional command leaves the will no liberty to choose the opposite; consequently it alone carries with it that necessity which we require in a law.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Secondly, in the case of this categorical imperative or law of morality, the difficulty (of discerning its possibility) is a very profound one. It is an a priori synthetical practical proposition;(*) and as there is so much difficulty in discerning the possibility of speculative propositions of this kind, it may readily be supposed that the difficulty will be no less with the practical.<br />
(*) I connect the act with the will without presupposing any condition resulting from any inclination, but a priori, and therefore necessarily (though only objectively, i.e., assuming the idea of a reason possessing full power over all subjective motives). This is accordingly a practical proposition which does not deduce the willing of an action by mere analysis from another already presupposed (for we have not such a perfect will), but connects it immediately with the conception of the will of a rational being, as something not contained in it. </p>
<p>To try and simplify: for Kant, all synthetic a priori judgments are &#8220;prescriptive,&#8221; because they are &#8220;unconditional commands&#8221; that give our minds &#8220;no liberty to choose the opposite.&#8221; I cannot will myself to believe that 7 + 5 = 238; it thus operates as a &#8220;command&#8221; equal in force to moral imperatives.<br />
Applying those imperatives to particular situations is, as Kant suggests in Kant 2 above, simply an operation of our contingent practical faculties; that&#39;s what he means when he says that &#8220;whoever wills the end, wills also the means in his power which are indispensably necessary thereto.&#8221;<br />
I know this is tough stuff, but the bottom line is that the prerequisites to &#8220;objective morality&#8221; are simply: (1) the ability to ascertain moral truths a priori, which Kant shows is possible without any external referent, and (2) the subjective and contingent condition of the human brain to carry out the will. No third party is necessary.<br />
For Kant, then, I recognize that lying is wrong in exactly the same way that I recognize that the proposition 7 + 5 = 238 is wrong. I may nonetheless choose to lie anyway for personal gain recognizing that my action contradicts my will. Similarly, I may choose to act on 7 + 5 = 238 for personal gain &#8212; e.g., in filling out my deductions on my income tax &#8212; and I similarly recognize that I have willed an internal contradiction.  Thus, one of Kant&#39;s major contributions to the world of metaphysics was the insight that both kinds of statements have equal force from the same source: pure human reason.<br />
Since no external lawgiver is necessary to make 7 + 5 equal to 12, similarly, no external lawgiver is necessary for the synthetic a priori moral propositions that we also derive from human reason, acting alone.<br />
4.  <strong>To the extent it is cognizable, Premise A is internally contradictory.</strong>  In addition to showing us that human beings can derive objectively real truths through reason alone, Kant also shows us that the AfM &#8212; in which individuals merely apply moral principles previously dictated by God &#8212; actually renders the resulting moral will subjective rather than objective.<br />
Thus, <a href="http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=10995&#038;pageno=19" rel="nofollow">Kant demonstratres in the <em>Groundwork</em> that the application of preexisting substrata renders morality contingent, rather than objective</a>: </p>
<blockquote><p>
Kant 4:<br />
Everything in nature works according to laws. Rational beings alone have the faculty of acting according to the conception of laws, that is according to principles, i.e., have a will. Since the deduction of actions from principles requires reason, the will is nothing but practical reason. If reason infallibly determines the will, then the actions of such a being which are recognized as objectively necessary are subjectively necessary also, i.e., the will is a faculty to choose that only which reason independent of inclination recognizes as practically necessary, i.e., as good. But if reason of itself does not sufficiently determine the will, if the latter is subject also to subjective conditions (particular impulses) which do not always coincide with the objective conditions; in a word, if the will does not in itself completely accord with reason (which is actually the case with men), then the actions which objectively are recognized as necessary are subjectively contingent, and the determination of such a will according to objective laws is obligation, that is to say, the relation of the objective laws to a will that is not thoroughly good is conceived as the determination of the will of a rational being by principles of reason, but which the will from its nature does not of necessity follow.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Thus: if morality is just applying the laws God independently set forth, then our reason becomes subjectively contingent; i.e., non-objective.  As Kant says, &#8220;if reason of itself does not sufficiently determine the will.. then the actions which objectively are recognized as necessary are subjectively contingent,&#8221; and hence, morality would not flow of necessity from human existence.  The AfM is self-defeating.<br />
These four arguments show that we now have good reasons to reject both the fundamental axiom and the first premise of the AfM. Not only is there no good reason to suppose that objective morality exists, but even if there were, we wouldn&#39;t need to posit some objective lawgiver to explain its existence.<br />
But the second premise of the AfM is false, too:<br />
5.  <strong>Premise B is empirically false</strong>.  On face, Premise B seems intuitively true, even trivial &#8212; for a yardstick to be &#8220;objective,&#8221; the stick itself must not change from object to object being measured. So too, proponents reason, must there be a Single Universal Absolute Truth in order to judge different propositions.<br />
Think about it more closely, however, and you&#39;ll see that this intuitive move is contrary to our everyday experience. For example: a medical textbook will display a &#8220;textbook&#8221; human body against which the doctor can measure diseases; the textbook will show what an ideal liver looks like, an ideal heart, an ideal brain, etc., etc. No single person has to exist with all &#8212; or even any &#8212; of these characteristics in order for us to diagnose a diseased liver. We know what an ideal liver looks like from looking at millions of human livers, even though no individual liver is perfect.<br />
Similarly, we can develop an ideal, absolute moral yardstick from our collective lifetimes of reviewing human behaviors, even though no perfect human exists to serve as the embodiment of that yardstick.<br />
To put it most simply: intersubjectivity is a valid basis for adjudicating judgments.  Our experience tells us that you can produce invariant, objective standards from an aggregation of numerous subjective a posteriori sources. When you go to the doctor, he doesn&#39;t say, &#8220;Well, what counts as a healthy liver depends upon the circumstances.&#8221; No; he says, &#8220;This is an idealized conception of what a healthy liver should look like,&#8221; and then uses that absolute yardstick as a touchstone for ascertaining where your particular liver diverges from the good.<br />
Every liver deviates from the ideal liver in some way; some more than others. Thus, no one liver is ideal to use as a yardstick. But from the intersubjective comparison of lots of livers, we can come up with an idealized liver to use when evaluating individual livers on a case-by-case basis.<br />
Similarly, every human being&#39;s moral behavior deviates from the ideal of morality in some way; some more than others. Thus, no one human being is ideal to use as a yardstick. But, from the intersubjective comparison of lots of humans, we can come up with an idealized moral code to use when evaluating human behavior on a case-by-case basis and that&#39;s all we need to do in order to condemn the Holocaust.  No &#8220;perfect morality&#8221; need exist just as no &#8220;perfect liver&#8221; need exist.<br />
In a way, this is the antithesis of the ontological argument; one empirically valid method for deriving perfection is the aggregation of non-perfect things to develop an ideal from which those individual deviations can be measured.<br />
Now, these five arguments have set forth numerous sufficient alternatives to explain the basis of human conscience &#8212; intuitionism, situational ethics, Kantianism, and now intersubjectivity.  It should be clear that the AfM&#39;s eliminative inference is not justified.<br />
6.  <strong>An &#8220;External Referent&#8221; Need Not Be A &#8220;Lawgiver&#8221;</strong>.  In your formulation, I notice that instead of &#8220;external referent,&#8221; you supplant Premise A with a much more narrow requirement that morals not only require something external but an external <em>lawgiver</em>.<br />
But an external referent capable of making a yardstick consistent from person to person need not be the source of that measuring device. For example, a meter is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre" rel="nofollow"> defined by the International Bureau of Weights and Measures as the distance travelled by light in absolute vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second</a>; prior to that, it was defined by reference to a platinum-iridium bar kept at 0 degrees Celsius. In order for a meter to be constant from measured item to measured item, a separate thing must exist that is invariant of the two items. That&#39;s all. Meters are not &#8220;made&#8221; or ordained by light or platinum-iridium.<br />
Thus, at most, all the AfM would prove is that some non-human observer exists. It doesn&#39;t prove that the external referent is the source (or &#8220;divine will&#8221;) of the moral law.  And remember the burden under the AfM; one has to show that no other moral system is conceivable.<br />
These six arguments now cover virtually every contingency. I&#39;ve shown that there&#39;s no basis for the assertion that objective morality must exist. If you don&#39;t accept that, I&#39;ve shown that the assertion is undefined. If you don&#39;t accept that, I&#39;ve shown that the assertion doesn&#39;t require any external referent but can be derived from human reason alone, in two ways. And now, even if you don&#39;t accept <em>that</em>, I&#39;ve shown that the external referent need not be a lawgiver but can be merely a non-human observer.<br />
Given the utter failure of the logical structure of the AfM, the next two arguments (7) and (8) provide two independent reasons to reject the principles behind AfM as well.<br />
7.  <strong>Inter-Christian disagreements over basic moral questions illustrate that absolute morality cannot practically exist,</strong> because even if absolute truths had an independent moral existence, they would still have to be filtered through the same human rationality that&#39;s available to non-Christians.<br />
Even if one accepts the axiom that there is an external absolute, objective morality that governs human behavior, the AfM is silent as to how a nonabsolute, subjective individual is supposed to access that absolute moral standard. even if we presuppose that the moral law is given by God as revealed in the Bible, that really means that the law is given by what we <em>think</em> God wants as revealed in the Bible as <em>we</em> interpret it, filtered by our own rationality.<br />
This is a pretty straightforward argument; it says that even if there are objective moral laws out there somewhere, we can&#39;t access those laws through anything except human reason. Thus, the most a human being can say is, &#8220;I&#39;m pretty sure God&#39;s laws exist, and I&#39;m pretty sure this is what they are.&#8221;<br />
The problems are two-fold.  First, the AfM is self-contradictory, because theists contradict themselves on basic moral principles.  Suppose a homosexual and wants to know whether or not he should be &#8220;reeducated&#8221; in such a way as to renounce his homosexuality (e.g., through something like Project Exodus International). Now, some large number of people can quote Scripture and tell that person why God definitely, absolutely thinks homosexuals are an abomination and therefore why the individual should go through extreme measures to change his homosexual behavior. But a similarly large number of people, citing the <em>exact same set of Scripture</em>, will tell him to do the exact opposite!<br />
On the other hand, there is really no secular arguments that I know of for why homosexuality is bad, and no secular reasons for a person to torture himself to stop practicing consensual homosexual behavior.  So, this is another turn.  if you&#39;re looking for absolute morality on the question of homosexuality, then Biblical morality is less helpful to you than secular morality.<br />
And the same is true for many other ethical issues. At worst &#8212; on say, progressive taxation or the Kyoto treaty or whatever &#8212; the secularists are just as divided as Christians. But at best &#8212; on interracial dating and marriage, on homosexuality, on equality and the role of women, on the use of contraceptives to stop the spread of AIDS in Africa, on embryonic stem cell research, and so on &#8212; secular morality gives you a relatively unanimous, relatively clear answer whereas disputes within Christianity gives you a muddle.<br />
Second, when we explore why different theists come to different answers on fundamental moral questions, we realize that the criterion theists use to differentiate between different theistic propositions is one of secular human reason!  The way in which we authenticate revelation &#8212; i.e., how we determine that Charles Manson or Andrea Yates have not really &#8220;spoken&#8221; to God &#8212; is through reason.  Thus, even theists concede that ordinary human reason is lexically prior to divine revelation.<br />
Of course, each person fervently believes that his subjective reading of Scripture is correct and that all other readings are wrong. But &#8212; and this is the critical part &#8212; that justification is made not by reference to divine intervention, but solely by the application of the Christian&#39;s own rational processes. In other words, when someone says that his reading of a particular verse of Scripture is incorrect, he doesn&#39;t say, &#8220;I know I&#39;m right because God told me,&#8221; he says, &#8220;I know I&#39;m right because I have more rigorously and more intelligently analyzed Scripture.&#8221;  This methodology shows that the whole AfM collapses like a house of cards. If human rationality is the filter through which absolute morality is processed, then we&#39;re all implicitly conceding that a non-Christian moral schema &#8212; which draws directly from human reason, acting alone &#8212; is superior to a theistic one.  And that seems contradictory, to say the least.<br />
In any event, if rigorous analysis, logical thought, and ordinary human intelligence is sufficient to evaluate whether God wills X or not-X, then it is also sufficient to evaluate whether X is good in the first place. It is no longer necessary to invent a God to have decreed X (or not-X), since you evaluate between X and not-X by reason alone anyway.<br />
In short:  internecine Christian disagreements &#8212; from political issues such as capital punishment, abortion, homosexuality, interracial marriage, birth control, and so on &#8212; to spiritual issues such as salvation by faith alone (or by good works), the existence and nature of the Trinity, the existence and nature of Hell, and so on, demonstrate conclusively that even if absolute morality existed in some external referent (e.g., God), there would still be no reliable way to know that the true moral law had accurately communicated to you or that you had divined it correctly from studying Scripture.<br />
8.  Finally, <strong>The Euthyphro Dilemma</strong> stands as a strong independent objection to the AfM.  <a href="http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/euthyfro.html" rel="nofollow">Plato, pretending to be Socrates, succinctly articulated the conceptual problem with this argument about 2500 years ago in the Euthyphro</a>: is an action &#8220;moral&#8221; simply because God commands it, or does God command it because it is independently moral?<br />
Instantly, you see the problem. If you select the first option, then morality is arbitrary, based merely upon god&#39;s whim. Had God decreed that murder, rape, torture, and genocide were moral, then we would be obligated to behave in that fashion and Hitler would have been the paragon of virtue.<br />
More broadly, such a view of morality renders the statement &#8220;God is good&#8221; tautological, because &#8220;good&#8221; is simply another word for &#8220;whatever God does.&#8221; Worse, we are left with a sole warrant for all moral behavior &#8212; that we are to do or not do something based on whether God has commanded or forbidden it. Thus, we cannot adjudicate how to weigh moral principles in conflict because we cannot claim that one moral obligation is superior to another.<br />
For example (following Wittgenstein and Nagel&#39;s criticisms of Kant), if I am harboring Jews in my attic and the Gestapo show up at my door asking if I am harboring any Jews, I need to prioritize the moral principle of telling the truth versus the moral principle of not handing innocents over to be tortured and killed.  If I have an independent basis for morality rooted in my reason, then I can weigh one principle over another.  But if you are a Christian who holds that something is wrong <em>merely and solely because God commanded it</em>, then you have no basis to say that one act of divine disobedience is better or worse than another. And thus morality becomes meaningless.<br />
To be clear:  the argument is not that God&#39;s decrees are bad because they can, could, or would change.  The argument is that even if God&#39;s will never changes, it&#39;s still arbitrary.  There are then at least three impacts as to why arbitrariness is bad when it comes to evaluating moral schema:<br />
a.  Arbitrariness is bad because it contradicts the premise underlying the AfM in the first place; that is, that there is some framework by which we can say Hitler is bad. But we can only say Hitler is bad because God happened to decree that genocide was evil in this universe by fiat. Had God decided that genocide was good, then Hitler would be a saint. So again, we see an internal contradiction:  the AfM is less able to produce what the AfM says it produces &#8212; a basis to decry Hitler.<br />
b.  Arbitrariness is bad because it&#39;s tautological. Saying &#8220;God is good&#8221; then becomes the equivalent of saying &#8220;this triangle has three sides,&#8221; which, although true, is only an analytical proposition and thus is of no veridical content.<br />
c.  Finally, arbitrariness is bad because it assigns all moral propositions the same intrinsic weight because those propositions are only valuable because God says so. Then, I tell you that kind of equivocal value is bad, because it doesn&#39;t let you resolve real-world dilemmas.<br />
On the other hand, if you select the second option and hold that there are independent moral goods that exist regardless of what God commands, then while you avoid the harms of arbitrariness, you also concede that the AfM is false in the first place.  All the response to the AfM need show is that morality is possible without God; the phrase &#8220;God is good&#8221; then, ironically enough, becomes sufficient proof of that.<br />
I apologize for the length but hopefully this clears things up.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://afcmin.org/ateam/473/the-radio-killed-the-bloggers/comment-page-1#comment-2198</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afcmin.org/ateam/?p=473#comment-2198</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I too found this place from the apologetics.com broadcast.  Nice community you&#039;ve got here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too found this place from the apologetics.com broadcast.  Nice community you&#39;ve got here.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://afcmin.org/ateam/473/the-radio-killed-the-bloggers/comment-page-1#comment-2193</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afcmin.org/ateam/?p=473#comment-2193</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Andrew,
Sorry.  I missed that link.  Kant is hard for me to understand.  Do you think you could explain the argument for me?  So far nothing you&#039;ve said seems to speak at all against my argument, but you seem convinced that it completely refutes my argument.
Since part of my argument &lt;i&gt;includes&lt;/i&gt; the premise that morals are real in the same sense as logic, how can that be &lt;i&gt;inconsistent&lt;/i&gt; with my argument?  You claim that this observation is all you need to disprove my argument.  I don&#039;t see how it disproves my argument at all.  Could you explain that a little farther?
You say that since morals are synthetic &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; propositions that they therefore don&#039;t require a lawgiver.  Could you explain why?
And I may have a misunderstanding, but I thought logic was analytic, not synthetic.  I agree that both logic and morals are &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt;, but isn&#039;t that an epistemological issues rather than an ontological issue?  If it&#039;s an epistemological issue, then it&#039;s irrelevent to the ontological question of whether morals can exist in the absense of a moral lawgiver.  Or am I misunderstanding something?  Like I said, I find Kant hard to understand.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew,<br />
Sorry.  I missed that link.  Kant is hard for me to understand.  Do you think you could explain the argument for me?  So far nothing you&#39;ve said seems to speak at all against my argument, but you seem convinced that it completely refutes my argument.<br />
Since part of my argument <i>includes</i> the premise that morals are real in the same sense as logic, how can that be <i>inconsistent</i> with my argument?  You claim that this observation is all you need to disprove my argument.  I don&#39;t see how it disproves my argument at all.  Could you explain that a little farther?<br />
You say that since morals are synthetic <i>a priori</i> propositions that they therefore don&#39;t require a lawgiver.  Could you explain why?<br />
And I may have a misunderstanding, but I thought logic was analytic, not synthetic.  I agree that both logic and morals are <i>a priori</i>, but isn&#39;t that an epistemological issues rather than an ontological issue?  If it&#39;s an epistemological issue, then it&#39;s irrelevent to the ontological question of whether morals can exist in the absense of a moral lawgiver.  Or am I misunderstanding something?  Like I said, I find Kant hard to understand.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://afcmin.org/ateam/473/the-radio-killed-the-bloggers/comment-page-1#comment-2192</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afcmin.org/ateam/?p=473#comment-2192</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I linked to Kant&#039;s Prolegomena five posts ago; that shows that both logic and morals are &quot;real&quot; in the same sense.
That&#039;s all I need to disprove your argument; the Bonhoeffer stuff is independent.  Since logic doesn&#039;t require a lawgiver, and since morals and logical statements are both synthetic a priori propositions, morals don&#039;t require a lawgiver.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I linked to Kant&#39;s Prolegomena five posts ago; that shows that both logic and morals are &#8220;real&#8221; in the same sense.<br />
That&#39;s all I need to disprove your argument; the Bonhoeffer stuff is independent.  Since logic doesn&#39;t require a lawgiver, and since morals and logical statements are both synthetic a priori propositions, morals don&#39;t require a lawgiver.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://afcmin.org/ateam/473/the-radio-killed-the-bloggers/comment-page-1#comment-2183</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2006 01:23:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afcmin.org/ateam/?p=473#comment-2183</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Sam this is my blogger account.  You have given me too much to look at right now inorder to give you a real responce.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Sam this is my blogger account.  You have given me too much to look at right now inorder to give you a real responce.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://afcmin.org/ateam/473/the-radio-killed-the-bloggers/comment-page-1#comment-2191</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 00:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afcmin.org/ateam/?p=473#comment-2191</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I went back over your posts to find your kantian analysis of why the laws of logic and morals are ontologically equivalent, and I couldn&#039;t find it.  I&#039;m sure it&#039;s in there, but you just failed to mention Kant, so I&#039;m not sure which argument it is.  By &quot;ontologically equivalent&quot; do you mean they are both real in the same sense?  If so, then no need for the argument.  I&#039;ve already agreed with you on this point.
Or do you mean that neither of them requires a law-giver?  If so, then I suppose you&#039;re referring to the Bonhoeffer analysis.  As I said before, I haven&#039;t read Bonhoeffer, so I can&#039;t really respond.  But nothing you&#039;ve said about it seems to indicate that God is unnecessary for morals.  You say &quot;Obviously...&quot; but it&#039;s far from obvious to me.
You&#039;ve said that my argument is tautological, but in my response, I pointed out that you were misconstruing my argument.  Since you didn&#039;t respond to that, and you never really responded to my actual argument, there&#039;s not much else I can say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went back over your posts to find your kantian analysis of why the laws of logic and morals are ontologically equivalent, and I couldn&#39;t find it.  I&#39;m sure it&#39;s in there, but you just failed to mention Kant, so I&#39;m not sure which argument it is.  By &#8220;ontologically equivalent&#8221; do you mean they are both real in the same sense?  If so, then no need for the argument.  I&#39;ve already agreed with you on this point.<br />
Or do you mean that neither of them requires a law-giver?  If so, then I suppose you&#39;re referring to the Bonhoeffer analysis.  As I said before, I haven&#39;t read Bonhoeffer, so I can&#39;t really respond.  But nothing you&#39;ve said about it seems to indicate that God is unnecessary for morals.  You say &#8220;Obviously&#8230;&#8221; but it&#39;s far from obvious to me.<br />
You&#39;ve said that my argument is tautological, but in my response, I pointed out that you were misconstruing my argument.  Since you didn&#39;t respond to that, and you never really responded to my actual argument, there&#39;s not much else I can say.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://afcmin.org/ateam/473/the-radio-killed-the-bloggers/comment-page-1#comment-2182</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 00:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afcmin.org/ateam/?p=473#comment-2182</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scott, I don&#039;t have your email address.  When I click on your name is just takes me a login page for yahoo.  I&#039;m going to respond here.  I agree with your concern about how people often appeal to &quot;mystery&quot; to support crazy ideas.  I wrote a blog about that a while back called &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://philochristos.blogspot.com/2005/05/punting-to-mystery.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;punting to mystery&lt;/a&gt;.&quot;  I think there&#039;s a legitimate and an illegitimate use of it, though.  I explained that a little farther in a blog about &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://philochristos.blogspot.com/2005/05/mystery-of-incarnation.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the mystery of the incarnation&lt;/a&gt;.&quot;
There are a lot of crazy ideas out there, and punting to mystery is just one of many ways to defend them.  The way I see it, some issues are easier to resolve than others.  There are some issues I don&#039;t have resolved, and others I feel pretty confident about.  I remember when I first started seriously studying the Bible and trying to find out which denomination was right, I got extremely frustrated.  I remember begging God to reveal the truth to me, but I didn&#039;t have much hope that he would.  I thought surely lots of other people had prayed the same thing and inspite of putting forth all their effort to discover the truth, they still disagreed with each other.
At the time, each opposing point of view seemed arbitrary to me because I was only considering the fact that the experts disagreed with each other.  I wasn&#039;t really considering the arguments each side used to support their view.  I hadn&#039;t gotten that far yet.  I discovered, though, that the more I studied a subject, the more I formed an opinion.  I didn&#039;t choose to believe one thing over another.  I just found myself coming to believe one thing over another as a result of the study.  It&#039;s hard not to come to conclusions about things the more you study them.
I also discovered that not all arguments are equal.  There are intelligent people out there who make sloppy arguments.  Some ideas are simply not worth taking seriously.  But, of course, there will always be some issues that are hard to resolve because the arguments on all sides seem strong.
A lot of my anxiety was cured by having &lt;i&gt;informed&lt;/i&gt; opinions.  As I said, the more I studied, the more I came to conclusions.  But on the other hand, I have changed my mind about things in the past because of doing further study.  That has also caused me to be more careful about forming my opinions, and to be careful in my thinking.
I&#039;ve also just decided to live with the fact that there&#039;s a lot I&#039;ll never know.  There are issues I may never resolve to my satisfaction.  Not every issue is of equal importance, thank goodness.
I wonder what you would think of J.P. Moreland&#039;s book, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1576830160/sr=8-1/qid=1156550282/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8928512-6167940?ie=UTF8&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;Love Your God With All Your Mind&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.
If you want to delve a little deeper into this whole argument I&#039;ve been making about the fact that we don&#039;t need to know God&#039;s reasons for allowing or causing evil, you might check out Alvin Plantinga&#039;s little book, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802817319/sr=1-1/qid=1156550407/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8928512-6167940?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;God Freedom and Evil&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, I don&#39;t have your email address.  When I click on your name is just takes me a login page for yahoo.  I&#39;m going to respond here.  I agree with your concern about how people often appeal to &#8220;mystery&#8221; to support crazy ideas.  I wrote a blog about that a while back called &#8220;<a href="http://philochristos.blogspot.com/2005/05/punting-to-mystery.html" rel="nofollow">punting to mystery</a>.&#8221;  I think there&#39;s a legitimate and an illegitimate use of it, though.  I explained that a little farther in a blog about &#8220;<a href="http://philochristos.blogspot.com/2005/05/mystery-of-incarnation.html" rel="nofollow">the mystery of the incarnation</a>.&#8221;<br />
There are a lot of crazy ideas out there, and punting to mystery is just one of many ways to defend them.  The way I see it, some issues are easier to resolve than others.  There are some issues I don&#39;t have resolved, and others I feel pretty confident about.  I remember when I first started seriously studying the Bible and trying to find out which denomination was right, I got extremely frustrated.  I remember begging God to reveal the truth to me, but I didn&#39;t have much hope that he would.  I thought surely lots of other people had prayed the same thing and inspite of putting forth all their effort to discover the truth, they still disagreed with each other.<br />
At the time, each opposing point of view seemed arbitrary to me because I was only considering the fact that the experts disagreed with each other.  I wasn&#39;t really considering the arguments each side used to support their view.  I hadn&#39;t gotten that far yet.  I discovered, though, that the more I studied a subject, the more I formed an opinion.  I didn&#39;t choose to believe one thing over another.  I just found myself coming to believe one thing over another as a result of the study.  It&#39;s hard not to come to conclusions about things the more you study them.<br />
I also discovered that not all arguments are equal.  There are intelligent people out there who make sloppy arguments.  Some ideas are simply not worth taking seriously.  But, of course, there will always be some issues that are hard to resolve because the arguments on all sides seem strong.<br />
A lot of my anxiety was cured by having <i>informed</i> opinions.  As I said, the more I studied, the more I came to conclusions.  But on the other hand, I have changed my mind about things in the past because of doing further study.  That has also caused me to be more careful about forming my opinions, and to be careful in my thinking.<br />
I&#39;ve also just decided to live with the fact that there&#39;s a lot I&#39;ll never know.  There are issues I may never resolve to my satisfaction.  Not every issue is of equal importance, thank goodness.<br />
I wonder what you would think of J.P. Moreland&#39;s book, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1576830160/sr=8-1/qid=1156550282/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8928512-6167940?ie=UTF8" rel="nofollow"><i>Love Your God With All Your Mind</i></a>.<br />
If you want to delve a little deeper into this whole argument I&#39;ve been making about the fact that we don&#39;t need to know God&#39;s reasons for allowing or causing evil, you might check out Alvin Plantinga&#39;s little book, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802817319/sr=1-1/qid=1156550407/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8928512-6167940?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books" rel="nofollow"><i>God Freedom and Evil</i></a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://afcmin.org/ateam/473/the-radio-killed-the-bloggers/comment-page-1#comment-2181</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:53:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afcmin.org/ateam/?p=473#comment-2181</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was saying that mysteries in the bible can be used to justify many crazy ideas.  History has proven this.  The division of the church is the best example I can think of.  The differences are stark.  communion for example, is it or is it not the body of chirst.  what demonation is right? Is it bible alone or bible and Pope.  Do we dunk people or do we just pray for them? 
Let me clarify something. I am looking for truth.  that is my concern.  My way of finding this is by me asking experenced people their option.  There is honestly too many odd paths to go down with this issue.  .... I would like to continue this via email please email me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was saying that mysteries in the bible can be used to justify many crazy ideas.  History has proven this.  The division of the church is the best example I can think of.  The differences are stark.  communion for example, is it or is it not the body of chirst.  what demonation is right? Is it bible alone or bible and Pope.  Do we dunk people or do we just pray for them?<br />
Let me clarify something. I am looking for truth.  that is my concern.  My way of finding this is by me asking experenced people their option.  There is honestly too many odd paths to go down with this issue.  &#8230;. I would like to continue this via email please email me.</p>
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