Modern Reformation #6: Conversation Partners- An Interview with Brian McLaren
July 25, 2005 Posted by Roger Overton
This is the final feature of the latest issue of Modern
Reformation on the Emergent Church. I believe this interview with Brian McLaren
was recorded and played on White Horse Inn some time ago, but I’m not certain.
It sounds similar anyway.
When asked “What is orthodoxy and who gets to define it?”
Mr. McLaren immediately started talking about power. “One of the great insights
of postmodern philosophy is to pay attention to the power relationships that
are involved in all discourse… unfortunately the word “orthodoxy” has so often
been related to who has the power to tell other people what to do.” (49) So
often? Maybe by a perverse maniac who kills thousands of people (Hitler, I’m
guessing, thought of himself as orthodox). Perhaps a case could be made that
“orthodoxy” has been used to exclude people who shouldn’t have been excluded,
but “the power to tell other people what to do?” I don’t think I’ve heard that
one before.
Although Brian McLaren likes to use the postmodern language
of abusive power structures, he does “think there are legitimate spheres of
authority. So the leaders of a local church have to decide who they’re going to
let in and for what purposes.” (49-50) I’ve commented before, I believe in
response to the “Official Emergent Response to Critics”, that this language of
“letting people in” is prejudiced. It makes the role of church leadership in
protecting the flock sound petty- as though they might not let people with pink
hair into the church because it’d be a distraction. Some churches are petty,
but this is an unfair mischaracterization of the church in general.
“We let people into our membership who are in sync with our
vision, mission, and values as wells as our understanding of the gospel. And we
have a good bit of latitude in that, but a Mormon won’t want to be part of our
church as a member. But that’s where I just think for this to all work we have
to respect that different communities have different standards. And though they
might have different standards, that might be good.” (50) So it’s good that
Mormons have different standards? I know he claims to not be a relativist, but
this sure looks and smells like relativism.
Back to the power plays again… When asked “Which in your
opinion is worse, liberalism or fundamentalism?” Brian McLaren responded,
“Well, whoever has the most power and weapons is the most dangerous… to me it
is like choosing between lung cancer and leukemia.” (51) Apparently it doesn’t
matter who’s right? Maybe the Liberals are right, but since they have a lot of
power they’re bad. A few questions later he states, “The Christian religion is
the biggest religion in the world.” (52) Following his reasoning, the Christian
religion is bad because it has a lot of power. Think I’m being unfair? Try this
one on for size…
He was asked,” You mentioned in one of your talks that
you thought fundamentalist Christians were more dangerous than fundamentalist
Muslims. Could you unpack that?” Brian McLaren answered, “Well it’s not because
I think they’re more wrong, but that they have more power. And so when you have
a lot of power, you can do more damage.” I haven’t seen very many Christians
blowing up subways, buildings, hotels, or buses lately. Power can produce
damage, but it doesn’t do so necessarily. God is quite powerful, and can cause
the most devastating damage. But since He’s a good and just God we are left
with no legitimate complaints about what He destroys. He is good, but not safe.
It does matter who’s right. Our hope shouldn’t be that powerful people are
weakened, but that good people under direction of God are placed in positions
of power and that they’ll utilize that power to His glory.
Related posts:
- Modern Reformation #3: Settlers, Pilgrims, and Wanderers by Michael Horton
- Modern Reformation #2: An Interview with Stanley Grenz
- Modern Reformation #1- The Emerging Church by D.A. Carson
- Book Review: A Generous Orthodoxy by Brian McLaren
- Modern Reformation #4: Experiencing Emergent by Shane Rosenthal
- Modern Reformation #5: Emergent Church Roundtable Discussion
Posted in Culture, Emerging / Emergent Church, Main Page, Roger's Posts, Theology
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July 25th, 2005 at 11:30 am
Roger, you're talking about God A. McLaren is “in universe B, getting to know God B.” And B is the first letter in the word Buddhist.
July 25th, 2005 at 11:38 am
Sweet, it's about time you posted that
July 25th, 2005 at 11:44 am
It seems to me that Brian McLaren's appeal to power relationships in discourse has more in common with Michael Foucault than Jesus Christ. Didn't Jesus say “I am the way, the Truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me”?
By appealing to power relationships, all Brian McLaren is doing is using his own language in an imperialistic way to negate all views other than his own. The problem is that his own language is subject to the same critique of imperialism.
Is it just me, or is there this heavy thread of post-Marx style thinking going on? It's like we're coming at Christianity with a dialectical view. Let's present two differential extremes and then find a synthesis between the two. Anyone who disagrees with the synthesis is merely locked in their own linguistic power game.
July 25th, 2005 at 4:38 pm
I think Jesus tended to go both ways with power. One the one hand he is certainly the “way the truth and the life”, but on the other hand, no one has ever been more submissive. A God willing to die at the hands of His puny creation, wow!
Secondly, while God should and ultimately does have the power, I'm not so sure that Christians should. We are sinful people, prone to all the same mistakes as others. I identify with Paul when he describes his struggles to do what he knows is right.
Consider the church before and after Constantine, in some respects it seemed a bit more successful pre-Constantine, when it served as the leaven. When we start to become the dough, the majority, the ones with the power, we tend, like the Israelites in the book of Judges, to forget where we came from, and why we do what we do. (I am not saying evangelicals have necessarily done this, but it is a danger) So often it becomes about the power, instead of our sovereign God, our Friend, Jesus Christ.
July 25th, 2005 at 9:34 pm
Power this, power that. MLK Jr. , and Gandhi were powerful, the soldiers who liberated the concentration camps and enforced the Emancipation proclamation used a different sort of power, but power nonetheless.
Yes, power can be abused. Yes, Christains have abused it. So what. This is news? Did God not know this when he gave humanity dominion over the earth? Did He ask for it back and I missed it?
I'm tired of McLaren. It is not surprising that someone who disdains giving clear answers and clear thinking does not come across as a good thinker.
I'm glad for those who have waded through his stuff, but I'm beginning to think he should be ignored, and we should focus on the more conversant and orthodox voices in Emergent.
I know many have found something in McLaren that speaks powerfully to them, and I wish them well. But I don't know what the fuss is about. I have never been so despondent about the fallen brothers and sisters I grew up with (i.e. the Church) and our imperfect ways that I thought I needed another reformation.
July 25th, 2005 at 11:02 pm
Micah, I appreciate that you've never been so despondent about others in the church. That is admirable. Your self-description as a “Protestant mutt with Catholic and Orthodox sympathies” puts you ahead of the curve to a certain degree on that.
July 27th, 2005 at 11:26 am
The power that I believe McLaren is speaking of is the kind antithetical to Incarnational Love. The model for power is Philippians 2. In giving up power for love's sake Jesus over-turned the entire power structure. We dishonor Him when we as Fundamentalists or Liberals try to re-establish the old paradigm of power.
I believe that is what McLaren and others are addressing. That and control which is the opposite of living faith.
As for Timbo's comment. That's just silly. Take a pill. If I quoted or found some of Thich Nyat Hanh's writings helpful would that make me a Buddhist? I don't think so.
July 27th, 2005 at 1:29 pm
Mac, I have no need to take a pill. I had Corn Flakes for breakfast, followed by my usual 10 A.M. Dr. Pepper on the way to work. I am currently drinking Gatorade. I think you should take notice of the question mark at the end of my post. I'm not saying that McLaren has embraced Buddhism, but I am raising the question because I believe it's an important one to consider. At any rate, if McLaren has not embraced Buddhist ideas, it is still important to know that he is influenced by Buddhist ideas and take them into account as we evaluate his work. Moreover, we need to be wary of those who dismiss the ideas of their opponents as mere power plays, for, as the twentieth century has shown, the rhetoric of community is often a mask worn by those who wish to acquire power of their own. I'm not saying that McLaren is doing this, but that we need to acknowledge that everybody, not just modern fundamentalists and liberals, can be tempted by power.