Interview with Scott Smith, Part I

April 10, 2006 Posted by Roger OvertoncloseAuthor: Roger Overton Name: Roger Overton
Email: rogeroverton@hotmail.com
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About: Roger Overton is currently pursuing a Masters degree at Talbot School of Theology. He has addressed various churches, schools and youth camps throughout the United States. Roger was co-editor of The New Media Frontier (Crossway, 2008) and God and Governing (Wipf & Stock, 2009). Roger can be emailed at rogeroverton@hotmail.com.See Authors Posts (569)

The more
academic version, however, draws upon several key philosophical positions.  Most common is the idea, which is expressed
in a variety of ways, that we somehow have been so influenced by our language,
culture, historical situatedness, and more, that we somehow cannot transcend
their shaping influences and know the real world as it actually is, apart from
our thoughts, beliefs, cultures, and (most of all) our languages (which, by the
way, is what I mean by referring to the “objective” world).  Another way to put this is that we do not
have knowledge by direct acquaintance with any thing in the real world.  Alternatively, there is no simple, direct
“seeing,” to use the language of philosophy of perception.  Instead, there is only “seeing as,” or “seeing
that.”  On that view, inevitably
interpretation is part of experiencing the world, so we cannot know the real
world as it truly is, apart from our interpretations.

What beliefs or characteristics might define a Christian
as “postmodern”?

Let me focus
on some of McLaren’s answers.  To use his
terms, a “new kind of Christian” has laid aside the expectations of modernity
to have everything understood, including God, and instead delights in finding a
God who is full of wonder and mystery.  In
addition, he (or she) has shed the baggage of foundationalism and its
(supposed) requirement to have certainty in our Christian beliefs.  A new kind of Christian wants to embody the
story of Jesus, and not settle for abstract, ahistorical truths that have been
divorced from their context, the story of Jesus.  New, postmodern kinds of Christians genuinely value community,
especially against the rampant individualism of modernity.  I’d also see my chapter three, and the first
dialogue between Neo and Dan in McLaren’s
A New Kind of Christian.

You explain that several prominent theologians, as well
as Emerging Church voices Brian McLaren and Tony Jones, describe us as being
“inside” language in such a way as to prevent us from knowing anything about
reality. How then, on their view, can we claim to know anything about God?

First, I
should mention that various people understand the relationship of language and
world (or, put differently, the extent of the shaping influences of language,
culture, etc., upon our ability to know the real world) differently.  Like Alasdair MacIntyre, some seem to think
that there are real, objective realities that we know as such apart from our
language use.  He mentions various
minerals, and I think the laws of logic would fall into this kind of category
for him.  Others, such as Grenz and
Franke, seem to think that there is a real, physical world out there, but we
still live in a socially constructed one, one that has been made into what it
is by our use of our language. 

Second, I
don’t see anyone claiming that we cannot know anything about reality.  Nevertheless, for the Christians I examine,
the move seems to be that we know reality from “under the aspect of” the
Christian story, or the gospel.  Not
only would they think that from that standpoint we see life and the world
accurately (which I think is right), they seem to go further and also claim
that we cannot seem to know reality as it truly is apart from the use of our
particular language.  But if that is the
case, then we seem left without a way to know that our claims as Christians are
indeed true about the real world (e.g., that Jesus actually arose from the
dead).  However, I do see them trying to
maintain that despite our limitations to know reality, God participates with us
in our Christian communities and language “games,” enabling us to understand
His revealed truth.  But, I don’t think
that view will withstand scrutiny, for as I argue in the book, we still are
limited in our ability to know even that that is the case, due to our
particular (in)abilities to know reality as it is apart from our language use.

What are some of the strengths of McLaren’s analysis of
modernity?

They are
many, I think, especially when we consider how he says modernity has affected not
just the culture, but also the church. 
And even if he is not exactly right in all his assessments, they are
close enough to home to make us pause and consider carefully all his
claims.  Here are a few: (a) Christians
have acted in ways to try to conquer and control, as evidenced in part even by our
choice of terms (e.g., “crusades” for our evangelistic efforts).  (B) We have tended to reduce the Christian
life to a set of simple formulas, such that if we are not experiencing the
fruit of the Spirit, the cause must be due to our own fault, maybe due to
misapplication of the simple truths, or due to our sin.  (C) We must have “bombproof” certainty in
our beliefs as Christians, and if we doubt, woe to us.  So, (d) God is rigid and controlling,
expecting us to believe without any doubts, and to apply the simple truths of
the faith just right.

Tony Jones, National Coordinator of Emergent-U.S., has
claimed that we ought to change the presuppositions of how to do ministry in
order to effectively communicate with postmodern people. What are some of the
key changes he’s advocating?

I
think this is a wise question to consider, since it is good missiology to
consider how to contextualize the gospel to reach a given people group.  In his Postmodern
Youth Ministry book, he mentions in part that we need to realize that youth
now are being raised under the influence of postmodernism, which I think is
largely right on target.  Jones thinks we need to live as Christian missionaries in
a foreign culture, since American culture is post-Christian.  Like missionaries abroad, we have to learn
the “language” of the broader culture, so we can communicate with its members.  Youth workers need to understand mysticism
and spirituality, pluralism, and deconstructionism, to name a few.  See my chapter 3 for more details.

Related posts:

1. Interview with Scott Smith, Part II
2. Interview with Scott Smith, Part III
3. Interview with David Wells, Part I
4. Interview with David Wells, Part 2
5. Interview with Richard Abanes about Tolle, Part 1
6. Modern Reformation #6: Conversation Partners- An Interview with Brian McLaren

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