Tim Challies Blog Tour
January 9, 2008 Posted by Amy Hall
Tim Challies is here today to discuss his book, The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment. Welcome, Tim!
AMY: Which aspect of contemporary Western culture do you think most hinders us (Christians shaped by this culture) from developing the skill of discerning the truth about God and His will? Which aspect of Western Christian culture? What practical steps can we take in our own lives to help us resist these particular cultural influences?
TIM: In the book's second chapter I deal with some of the negative influences that tend to keep Christians from emphasizing spiritual discernment. I mention internal, spiritual and cultural influences. There are four cultural influences that I write about there: a secular worldview, a low view of Scripture, a low view of theology and a low view of God.
Whenever I pause to think about these four influences I reach a different conclusion about which of them is most detrimental or most destructive. But maybe we could take one step further back and look to a different aspect of our culture and that is an unrealistic assessment of mankind. After all, if we get our own human nature wrong, we also get God wrong and Scripture wrong and everything else wrong. Our culture tells us that we are innately good at heart. It tells us that we are not the work of a loving Creator, but the result of an evolutionary process that “chanced” us into existence. We have no planned beginning and have no place to look forward to in the end. Even morality becomes something that has developed intrinsically rather than something that is extrinsic to us–something handed to us from God. Culture exults humanity and human reason to the place of divinity, determining that in our own minds we can prove that God does not exist. We elevate reason above the one who created it. In this cultural atmosphere it is increasingly difficult for Christians to have a realistic, biblical assessment of their own nature and hence their own depravity.
Discernment is a skill that is necessary because of our sinfulness. In heaven we will have no need for discernment as good and evil will no longer be in conflict. We will have a prefect appreciation of the vast difference between God and man and will truly understand who we are. But today we continue to elevate ourselves and to lower God. The more highly we think of ourselves and the more we blur the lines between humanity and deity, the more difficult discernment will be.
When we consider which aspect of Western Christian culture most hinders us, sadly, we do not need to consider anything too vastly different. Western Christian culture today bears such a resemblance to the secular culture that in many cases they are nearly indistinguishable. Where mainstream civilization struggles, so too will Western Christian culture. So I suppose the Christian culture's persistent refusal to truly separate itself from the world is what most hinders us from developing discernment.
To resist these influences I think we need primarily to think biblically; we need to think Christianly. We need to develop the mind of Christ so that we understand ourselves the way we truly are and the world the way it truly is. We need to be mature, discerning, growing Christians who are dedicated to knowing God and to living in the way that He commands us in His Word. As we mature in the faith, we will grow in our discernment and we will rejoice ever more in good and be grieved ever more by what is evil. The only way to maturity is to dedicate ourselves to those ordinary means of grace God gives us–prayer, the reading of Scripture, fellowship with other Christians, and the like. These are the means God gives to teach us both to think and to be more like Him.
Related posts:
- Chat With Challies This Wednesday
- Gum, Geckos and God Blog Tour
- We Needed this Discernment Book
- Confusion About Science and Religion – Part Two
- "Will Blog for Books"
- Interview with David Wells, Part I
Posted in Amy's Posts, Main Page, Theology
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January 9th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Hey Tim,
Thanks for stopping by here on your tour. It sounds like the book is a great resource, but I do want to challenge you on a point you made in response to the question:
“Discernment is a skill that is necessary because of our sinfulness. In heaven we will have no need for discernment as good and evil will no longer be in conflict.”
On Joe's blog you said “we should understand discernment as being the ability to distinguish good from evil.” While I agree discernment is necessary, I don't see how it's solely because of our sinfulness. I would say that Jesus was using discernment when satan tempted him. I think we could say that God exercises discernment, and He obviously does so without being sinful.
Also, I agree that evil will be conquered by the time we're in heaven, but does it really follow that we are then ignorant of the difference between good and evil? I think we would agree that in heaven we are fully sanctified and have no desire for evil, but it seems a stretch to say we will be ignorant of it.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Also, I agree that evil will be conquered by the time we're in heaven, but does it really follow that we are then ignorant of the difference between good and evil? I think we would agree that in heaven we are fully sanctified and have no desire for evil, but it seems a stretch to say we will be ignorant of it.
I've been challenged on this before but still just don't see why we'd need discernment in heaven. When it will be impossible to sin I can't understand why we'd need to discern. We may well understand the difference between good and evil but since it will be impossible for us to sin, I don't see from the Bible that we'd need to exercise discernment. I'm certainly willing to be corrected here, though!
January 9th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
We are, of course, in a rather speculative area here since the Bible doesn't lay out all these details clearly. However, I would suggest that in order to praise God's goodness, which I assume we will do in heaven, we will have to know the difference between good and evil. Given your definition, “the ability to distinguish good from evil,” I think this means we will be practicing discernment.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
But if there's no evil in heaven, what would we have to discern between?
January 9th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
I don't see any reason to believe that once in heaven we forget everything we experienced before getting there. Given the definition of discernment being “the ability to distinguish good from evil,” I think we will see God's goodness clearly distinguished from the evil He's conquered. We will still know that evil exists, that God has conquered it, and God's utter goodness will be evident in contrast to it.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Also, while there will be no evil in heaven, I'm not sure we should say evil ceases to exist. Hell will exist as well, and the people there will still harbor evil in their hearts against God.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Roger,
I think I'm on board with your point, but this is interesting:
“I would suggest that in order to praise God's goodness, which I assume we will do in heaven, we will have to know the difference between good and evil.”
Were Adam and Eve, prior to the Fall, able to praise God's goodness?
January 10th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
I should add: positively defining “goodness” as the compliment of “evil” may be problematic. “Goodness” exists with or without “evil”; God was good before any evil entered the picture, and would have been good if evil never had.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Were Adam and Eve, prior to the Fall, able to praise God's goodness?
Hmmmm…Maybe not as fully as we will be able to after we've experienced God's mercy and seen His judgment. Our suffering now helps us to see more aspects of God's character and perfection than we ever would have seen had there been no fall.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
And to clarify, I think those aspects of God's character would have been present whether or not we ever saw them in action. Our sin and suffering simply reveals them to us.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
I think “discern”, Biblically, is not so much an abstract theoretical grasp of something's goodness or badness as it is knowledge so as to act in a certain way. This is an important distinction to make, so as to avoid equivocation on this term. We will (probably) cognitively understand what evil is in heaven (or in the resurrection, if you prefer), but we will no longer have to discern in our actions. It seems as if Roger is using the first sense of “discern”, whereas Tim is using the second.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
“Culture exults humanity and human reason to the place of divinity, determining that in our own minds we can prove that God does not exist. We elevate reason above the one who created it. In this cultural atmosphere it is increasingly difficult for Christians to have a realistic, biblical assessment of their own nature and hence their own depravity.”
I would like to see more feedback on this cultural elevation of reason. Theorizing about the heavenly is interesting, but there is so much on this side of heaven to keep sorting out. Too many churches have become reflective adaptations of culture. The discerning believer can see the creeping crud of secularism all over the pop thinking and worship in much of the church. Tim's book is timely and greatly needed. His own gift of discernment was obviously on full perk when he chose this topic.
January 11th, 2008 at 12:24 am
“Pop thought” in the church is one thing. Don't even get me started on the prosperity gospel or the doctrines of self-esteem, and how THEY affect our ability to merely live in this world, much less discern. BUT. When are we going to stop criticizing the churches who choose to rejoice for the grace that has been freely given? How arrogant are we to think that God is only honored and pleased with worship that is sober when He has given us EVERYTHING! (What do you think the angels and saints in Heaven are doing?) A person whose soul is rescued by God has no other choice but to magnify the LORD. If this looks like a secular adaptation or cultural thing, then it's because it is. God's not telling us He loves and saves some harp and lyre or congregational singing or organ-playing version of us. In 2008, we play instruments like the electric guitar, and that's who He is saving today. The way a church worships (and I'm strictly talking about the praise and worship, not true worship which plays out in everyday life) should always always always reflect the hearts of the people in the church who have been pulled from death to life. Otherwise, it is just religion, which damns. I just wonder sometimes, if God, who opposes the proud, looks down and smiles over the people who may not have it all together theologically, usually through no fault of their own. But instead, is He honored by the fact that they are broken people who simply plead the blood of Christ? Please excuse any misunderstanding I may have taken in your comment, and the fact that I ramble. I do not make a habit of commenting, or blogging for that matter. Challies, have not yet read your book, but enjoy the blog.
January 11th, 2008 at 9:44 am
I am an old Jesus Freak from the early 70's, that cut his musical teeth (I am a musician too) on the Beatles and Cream. When I found folks like Keith Green making music to worship and challenge, I found a wonderful ave of expression for my own “tastes”. I still loved singing the old hymns in church, but my 8-track player was still a mixed bag…so yes I understand the need for transcultural expression and am not judging a particular musical expression. I am speaking more to things like the “entertainmentization” of worship that minimalizes the individual's involvement in the corporate worship of God & the celebritization of the leadership; the commercialization and proliferation of Jesus trinkets… need I go on? Thanks for giving me incentive to clarify.