What is "Official" Mormon Doctrine? (Part 1)
December 21, 2005 Posted by Roger Overton
What do Mormons believe? Many individuals (both within and outside the LDS church) have attempted to answer this question. Nevertheless, given the nature of continuing revelation in Mormonism as well as the relative authority of various LDS materials, one must begin by grappling with the issue of “official” beliefs. What does the LDS church officially believe and teach?
The Problem
Robert Millet is a professor at Brigham Young University who has recently written a book to share with evangelicals and others what Latter-day Saints believe about Jesus Christ. Yet even in this work, A Different Jesus? The Christ of the Latter-day Saints, Millet states,
While I owe a deep debt of gratitude to faculty colleagues, ministers and theologians of other faiths, and students who have challenged me to clarify my thinking, I alone am responsible for the conclusions drawn from the evidence cited. This book is a private endeavor and is this without imprimatur or authorization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University (xii-xiii).
So, Millet admits that the LDS church neither authorizes this book nor does it necessarily summarize official Mormon doctrine.
With this in mind, where can we turn to understand LDS beliefs? Many have found Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon Doctrine helpful. However, one Mormon scholar points out the potential limitations of this work as well:
For two generations, many Latter-day Saints have relied for matters of doctrinal clarification upon an encyclopedic tome called Mormon Doctrine (first printing 1958) as the definitive statement on the subject, because of its authoritative title, tone, and authorship by a prominent apostle, Bruce R. McConkie. But it never received official sanction, and it expresses what an increasing number of Mormons see as an overly rigid fundamentalism (Terryl L. Givens, The Latter-day Saint Experience in America, 94).
Again, we ask to the question: where can we turn? Where can we look to find the teachings of Mormonism? And how can we seek to correctly understand Mormon doctrine so that we can accurately and effectively respond to the claims of Latter-day Saints? Simply put, we need a way to measure the authoritativeness of LDS sources. Since different LDS material has various levels of authority, we need to keep these distinctions in mind while studying Mormonism.
We will begin examining this “hierarchy of authority” in my next post.
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December 21st, 2005 at 5:52 pm
You had asked in your article of where can a person turn to understand Mormonism, to obtain clarity on the doctrine of this Church.
First of all, this Church is not the church of Mormon, it is the Church of Jesus Christ. There is no worship of any prophet, past or current.
Second, the doctrine held therein is not “Mormonism”, it is that of the Father in Heaven given through the authority of Jesus Christ. IT is the doctrine of God, not of Mormon.
This is an important distinction.
Now where can you or anyone gain a proper understanding of the doctrines of God?
Simple, ask of God (John 11:22 / James 1:5).
A simple method that only requires sincerity, humbleness and contriteness in heart and mind, and the Lord will, in his own way, impart understanding.
Therefore, with such spiritual inspiration, it confirms truth and alignment with the gospel (2 Pet 1:20 / 1 Cor 2:13-14), being the word of God, and would allow a person to even understand the works of Bruce McConkie.
Amen
MWarbinek
By the Spirit - A Christian Responsibility
December 22nd, 2005 at 10:23 am
Well, there is some disagreement about whether the LDS church is a church of Jesus Christ. Perhaps referring to the church as the LDS Church might have been clearer, but that was the author's decision. Outside the LDS Church it is coloquial to call them the Mormon Church or the docrines they hold to as Mormonism collectively, perhaps this is technically incorrect, but it is clear and convenient and avoids the presumptive statements you make about the inherent validity of the church's position and authority, which is not accepted universally.
Also, whether the doctrines espoused by the LDS Church are “the doctrine[s] of God” is very debatable, so long as you don't presuppose it as you clearly do. I agree though that we must look to God for guidance in such matters but many of the LDS Church's doctrines are likely rooted in places and authorities not recognized by the broader Christian community, although I don't want to imply that I believe the LDS Church is a Christian church. The prominence of the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price as additional scriptural sources is outright rejected by Protestants and even Roman Catholics. So the use of these sources and the role they play in the formulation of LDS Church doctrine gives rise to disagreement about the validity of the LDS Church's positions.
You might receive a warmer reception if you refrained from overly presumptive statements, especially regarding matters that are clearly disagreed about…remember, even in religion it is ok to acknowledge the role our opinions play in the formulation of our beliefs.
December 23rd, 2005 at 1:16 am
Presumptuous? Pray no my Dear Anon. Presumptuous is a person who has no idea that the one speaking to them has a valid and true witness from God, because he or she is blind to the Spirit, that is presumptuous. Yea, a true witness, obtained directly by and through the Spirit called the Holy Ghost. Just as it was for the apostles. This manner of witness and testimony is the pattern within the scriptures, a pattern that almost no one outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, knows or understands.
Which do you heed to? The mind of the world or the power of the Spirit? The world has no power to judge the Church of Jesus Christ, because God never gave them that power and authority. So, which do you seek confirmation from - the world or the Spirit? Do you wish that I show the scriptures that refer to the mind of men who are not edified by the Spirit? How they have no hope in understanding “spiritual” things, on their own by their own methods understanding?
IN the end of things, which will save you from the ravages of Satan which will increase just prior to the coming of the Lord? Will your beliefs save you? - beliefs that are not rooted in the rock by way of the Spirit? Is the will of the other “Christians” going to save you? Will the “broader Christian” community save you? Will the power of all the worldly opinions save you- Nay none of these things will save you at all.
Imagine Anon, Satan standing face to face with you and you speak to him as you speak to me. The last thing you see from him is his smile as you fall in fear and compliance to him, because without any of the Spirit of God within you, all your worldly opinions and ideas belong to the carnal, which is Satan.
My Dear friend, what misleads you is the false idea that the “trend” of the world or the “trend” of the broader Christian community is the authority on God's word and his Spirit. Have you not learned God's word that those who truly follow the Lord are not of the world, and have no concern or fear of whether the world agrees with them or not? Come now, the examples are plentiful in the gospel, of the faithful ones in the Spirit are actually few compared to number of “opinionated” ones the world.
Have you not learned the true value of opinion versus the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of the word? Nay, opinion has no value to determine God's word. Its value is only to believe it exists and to believe in Jesus Christ and to humble yourself to him, not “opinionate” yourself before him. Opinion has no power to discern spiritual things, and the doctrines of God, his word are spiritual things.
I say this in the name of Jesus Christ
Amen
MWarbinek
December 23rd, 2005 at 3:04 pm
MWarbinek, I say this in the name of Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 says, “Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances.” [We are not against prophetic utterances that are made through the Spirit, but...] “But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.”
How do we test the spirits? We certainly would not use the test offered by the Book of Mormon because that is the very question we're trying to discover–is it from God? If it isn't from God, then to use its test is to open ourselves up to being deceived by a spirit that is not from God.
We have to use the tests offered by the Bible. The Bible tells us to ask for wisdom to know why we're suffering, and God will give us wisdom. But in order to test prophets, the Bible sets out two main tests for discerning whether or not a prophet is from God, and the test you've offered is not the test. The first given by the Bible is in Deuteronomy 13:1-4 and says we must judge the prophet's words about the nature of God against the Bible. The second is in Galatians 1:8 and says we must judge the prophet's teachings about the gospel against the teachings of the Bible.
Can you reconcile the LDS view of God with these verses:
Isaiah 43:10–”Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me.”
Isaiah 44:8–”Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” [Please note regarding this verse that, in LDS theology, this is Jesus speaking. How could he say there is no other God? What about the Father?]
The answer is that there is one God, and not three separate gods (even if they are one in purpose) or even more.
I think you had better look carefully at all the verses pertaining to these two topics and examine what you find. If you ignore the truth written there and instead ask for a feeling to confirm something for you, you will be deceived.
I can give you an example of a passage in the Bible in which God sends a deception to those who ignore the truth. It's in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12–”…they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth.”
This verse is very grave and means that before you simply trust what this spirit has told you, you had better put its words through the tests of Scripture. If you don't do so, you may receive a deluding influence.
December 23rd, 2005 at 10:53 pm
There is far more to knowing and understanding the scriptures and its workings, than picking and choosing passages to satisfy your own ideas and preferences.
Read 1 Cor 2:14:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
There is no human or mortal test to test the “spirit” of another or the spiritual word from another. Such tests can only come by having the ability to spiritually discern and understand.
Forget not what Jesus said to Peter:
Matt. 16: 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Do you not savour the things of the world, their opinions and ways of thinking, just has you have shown and used in an attempt to reprove me?
Do you act as Peter, which is wickedly, knowing nothing of spiritual things?
Read and see that Peter acted with the mind of a natural man, things of the flesh or things of the world, and he was an Apostle! He failed to perceive truth and failed to discern the “spirit” of intent and actions by Jesus. Now please do not tell me you have exceeded the faith of Peter and his knowledge. How can you discern spiritual things better than he, and he had God teaching him personally!
Now read 1 Cor 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man
December 23rd, 2005 at 11:16 pm
BY FAITH
I answered this separately as it was best this way.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
God is reproving because of the lack of “faith”. It is faith, by which truth is believed. The “unrighteous” in those passages followed the ways and opinions of the world, just like you. They never asked of God, never sought his Spirit to teach them as the Apostles showed by example. They acted selflessly and by their own personal counsels.
Read again that passage and the chapter in question. Paul prophesied the apostasy, which are people ignoring the Spirit, and following and allowing men to mislead them.
Paul said to hold to the teachings given. Do you understand those teachings?
How foolish you have been! Paul did not teach us to ignore the Spirit of God and his inspirations by reducing them to mortal tests. Do not forget Proverbs 3:5 - “do not use thine own understanding” - foolish one.
DO NOT USE THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING, and lean thy heart to God.
That means to seek God for confirmation, by prayer, fasting and obedience. These are “righteous” actions and God will not numb your mind, but enlighten it.
Therefore, you have said: “before you simply trust what this spirit has told you” is a wrong determination and very poor counsel. How can you overcome your own ignorance by way of ignorance?
Trust in the Spirit of God, by way of faith and if you doubt, that is not the makings of the Spirit of God, but the spirit of doubt, which is not of God, therefore, read this wisdom and truth from God:
DC 93:39-40
39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.
40 But I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.
Put away your disputations and methods of debate. Learn the word of God from God, instead of from men who are not of God. Then and only then can thee discern and understand what is of God and what is not, as I have done against you.
I say this in the name of Jesus Christ
Amen
MWarbinek
December 24th, 2005 at 3:58 pm
Mark,
We welcome your comments and hope you'll engage in fruitful discussion here. However, your attitude is border-line means for banning. If you wish to continue commenting here, please do so in a respectful (and respectable) manner (i.e. not referring to everyone who disagrees with you as “foolish one”). This is your only warning. Instead of bashing us with your verbose rhetoric, don't you think it'd be more effective to actually engage the points being made in a way we can interact with you?
December 25th, 2005 at 3:40 am
What are your true intentions with the debates found in your articles and works? Are you not also trying to prove that “Mormonism” is foolish, by “responding to our claims”? Debating and lowering the true word of God to the level of “opinion”, claiming that it belongs to a group of people that the rest of the world disagrees with?
So you wish to engage in discussion about points that are of value?
The point is that what you speak of, as you work against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has no value to anyone's salvation, no purpose to the commandment of repentance, and does not serve, follow or obey the commandments set down by Jesus Christ, yea not even in the Bible. So what gospel are you teaching here?
If you want valued discussion about God's word, seek to discuss God's principles of Salvation and repentance. Seek that which is spiritual, not that which is temporal or of the world. Look at the true “spirit” behind your words for they are no different than calling me foolish. When you truly understand the spiritual, the spirit of God's word (John 6:63), then you will see truth and God will not need to send someone to address you as I have.
Do as the Lord has commanded and taught in the gospel, humble thyself and stop what you do, because your own salvation is at grave risk and anyone you mislead with the falseness you proclaim will be held against you in that judgment day. All this irrespective if the Church of Jesus Christ is of God or not.
I hope you see the point I am making.
Now that is said and done, I do wish you a Merry Christmas, and send you blessings of good will.
Sincerely
MWarbinek
December 28th, 2005 at 11:45 am
Mark.. as a former Mormon and one who regularly engages his very devout Mormon mother on a semi-regular basis as well as many of my mormon friends.. I know where you come from. obviously I don't agree.. Amy's “test” aren't opinion.. The bible very clearly states these tests of prophets in simple terms that anyone, spirit or no spirit can understand. It is true that only through God's spirit can we fully understand scripture or anything else for that matter. IN this case however the test is simple… do the prophets prophecies come true? If the answer is in the negative than we are told how to regard said prophet.
as long as you continue to hide behind “the holy spirit will guide me” you will be blind to fundamental errors in your theology. It took three years, lots of prayer and lots of Biblical study to finally admit that I had MORMON BLINDERS on. But in the end Mormon Doctrine doesn't stand up to Biblical doctrine.
And if you could refrain from speaking in 15th century english I'd appreciate. the Yae's Nay's and thou's are getting old…
one last comment.. you operate under the assumption that you have the Holy Spirit and we don't.. thus we can't possilbe understand scripture fully.. have you ever considered that maybe we are the ones with the guidance of God.. and thus are fully capable of understanding his word..
oh and Jesus's chastisement of Peter happened before the resurrection and before Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide the church. I think it can be safely argued that Peters strength in knowledge came after the resurrection. I'm not saying he was a fool before than, but that his Apostolic (my term) knowledge wasn't fully developed till Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to him after the resurrection.
forgive my lack of Scriptural references. I'm trying not to wake my wife..
If the true test of a prophet is not the accuracy of his prophecies, then what is the true test of a prophet and what basis do you give for your answer? If Amy's 'test' isn't Biblical than please give a clear explanation of what those passages really mean. As one gifted with the Holy Spirit this should be an attainable feat….
if any of my comments offend.. well, quite frankly… they are ment to offend.. the truth is an offense to those who don't want to hear it.. I know it has offended me on many of an occasion.. one thing I've learned over the years is that when God's word (meaning the Bible) says one thing and I say anything else.. it is me that is wrong, not God. . even with that knowledge it's hard to admit when I'm wrong..
December 29th, 2005 at 7:58 pm
If you were a Mormon once, then why did you leave?
Was it the Holy Ghost that confirmed to you that you must leave?
I will answer the rest soon.
By the way, my first name is Mark
December 30th, 2005 at 7:00 pm
Hey Mark,
I'll answer your question..
ten years seems like an eternity ago when it comes to thinking how long ago I left Mormonism. I was 19 and gungho ready to go on my mission. I had spent a year doing nothing (literally nothing else) but studying the Bible and the Book of Mormon (it constituted about half my day everyday). One day I crossed a passage in the BOM that just didn't make sense ( i'd quote it for you if I could remember what it was). Brother Low (the local Mormon theolgian, neighbor and good friend/mentor of mine) couldn't help me understand nor could anyone else I asked. In the ensuing months enough doubts crept into my head that I couldn't in good faith preach to the world that Mormonism was God's church.
it took three more years of studying Scripture and prayer and confusion to finally admit to myself that what I had been raised to believe was wrong. No man convinced me of this for I didn't go to church that whole time. The Bible alone and it's teaching clearly opposed what I had been taught. I prayed many a night that God would show me through his word that Mormonism was right, but all I received was a stronger Biblical conviction to the contrary. I learned the hard way that God is always right no matter how hard I want to believe something else.
About that time I decided to join a Christian church. But dissappointment hit me at every corner as Pastor after pastor failed to preach the gospel. In three years I tried 15 churches and finally settled for a non-denominational church that at least didn't offend God's word weekly.
Two years ago I finally stumbled upon a Reformed Christian Church. The first sermon I heard was on Tithing. I expected to be aphaulled at the greed I would hear coming from the pulpit (as had happened in the past). But that Sunday I walked away not offended but blessed to have finally heard a Biblical tithing message that didn't revolve around greed but God. It took me another year to become a member for I wanted to be sure this wasn't a fluke. But finally I joined the Orthodoxed Presbyterian Church. It's a great blessing to hear God's word preached from the Bible every week.
December 30th, 2005 at 10:40 pm
It reads as if you had not received any spiritual witness from the Holy Ghost that the Church was true, and that you had not received any inspirations while you had the Holy Ghost as your constant companion.
IT reads that you were solely with and by your own personal study and understanding.
You had belief, but no spiritual experience that would testify to you of the truth.
In reading your explanation, everything focused on your doubt, your perception, your feelings, and your struggle with a particular passage in the Book of Mormon.
I realize that you said you do not remember the passage that offended you, but can you remember what it was about or what it referred to? I ask this because people do not forget that kind of experience and some details of it.
Also, I ask, did you receive at any time a spiritual witness from the Holy Ghost as to the truth of the Church, the prophet and/or the Book of Mormon?
If the answer is yes, would you share that here?
If the answer is no, would you explain how you came to the Church? By birth or by belief?
If by belief, what was the belief?
I look forward to your answers.
MWarbinek
December 31st, 2005 at 1:34 pm
Well Mark,
At the time I was preparing for my mission I believed wholey in the church. I beleived, as every aspiring missionary, that the Holy Ghost had revealed to me the truthfullness of Mormonism. I woud have, and did, bear my 'Testimony' just as solemnly as any Mormon. I was raised Mormon (on my mothers side). But I gained my testimony when I was 18 just as every other Mormon gains thier testimony. My scripture study was sincere and with the full belief that I was reading God's word. Most Mormons including myself would have said the Holy Ghost was my guide and influence in this. Brother Low (my Mormon mentor) used to praise me for my Scriptual insight. Scriptures and knowledge were the only things that mattered to me. I still have my patriarical blessing. I still hold the Aronic Priesthood. I left the church shortly before I was to become an Elder. My Bishop had bought me two new suits for my mission. In terms of a prospective missionary I was ready, both outwardly and inwardly. I KNEW THAT THE MORMON GOSPEL WAS THE TRUTH.
That “knowledge” revealed to me by a very spiritual feeling (Holy Ghost) is why it took me 3 years to renounce Mormonism. I prayed constantly for the truth to reveal to me that Mormonism was right, but after three years, God's spirit and God's word (the Bible) showed me that I had been wrong my whole life.
“I realize that you said you do not remember the passage that offended you, but can you remember what it was about or what it referred to? I ask this because people do not forget that kind of experience and some details of it. ”
I do, ask my wife. What I do remember is the inner struggle I suffered in trying to give up “the Truth”. The most vivid experience, one which I've had many times, was and is a momentary glimpse into the feeling of complete and utter separation from God. It's the worst feeling I've ever felt. That feeling is why I had to be sure that I was right in leaving Mormonism. It's why it took my 3 years. Even then it was another 3 years before the fear that I might have walked away from the truth was replaced by the truthfulness of the gospel of Christ. The truths I find in the Bible continue to confirm that Mormonism is wrong.
Yes I studied the Bible for years without any outside influence. And when I finally went back to church I was disgusted at how they differered from the Bible (that includes Mormon as I attended a few services). But I've found a church that teaches what the Bible says. And what's even greater, it's what has been taught for 2000 years by Jesus, the Apostle Paul, Augustine, Calvin, Knox, Edwards, ect. There is nothing new under the sun. God's kingdom was established by Jesus becoming man, living, dying, suffering the wrath of God the Father, and conquering death in his Resurrection and ascention to heaven… and he reigns. It was not taken from the earth because it can't be taken from the earth.
I know that defies what you know to be the truth. If you want to know what I believe it was summarized about 400 years ago by a group of the worlds best theologians who spent five years in fervent prayer wanting only to know the truth of the Bible. It is called the Wesminster Confession of Faith
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html?foot=/documents/wcf_with_proofs/I_fn.html#fn0.
While no document written by man can ursurp the Bible, this is the best known breakdown of Biblical truths that I know of. And it is true only in that it's statements are supported by Scripture.
December 31st, 2005 at 2:05 pm
You said that you “believed” the Holy Ghost revealed the truth about the Church, or Book of Mormon.
You said that you completely believed this, yet later in your account, you said the Holy Ghost encouraged you that “Mormonism” is not true.
This is a contradiction. The Holy Ghost does not say “Yea” on one hand then “Nay” on the other for the same thing.
Now, you said that when you turned 18 years, you gained your testimony as every Mormon has.
From all that I have read, these questions arise. It would be nice for you to provide answers to these questions in order that I establish an understanding of what occurred. What people claim and what actually occurred can be two different things.
Questions:
1. Did you or did you not receive a witness by the Holy Ghost as to whether the Church was true?
(Please note that a belief is not a testimony, it is merely a belief. The Holy Ghost does not give beliefs, it gives truth. That is why I asked this question. If all you had was a belief, please explain how you got this belief that the Church was true.)
2. What manner is this “as every Mormon gains their testimony?” Please explain how you believed a Mormon gains a testimony.
3. This “spiritual feeling” that revealed knowledge to you. What was this knowledge? Please describe that spiritual feeling and / or experience that you had.
(I asked this because what you said comes across as vague)
4. You said God's Spirit showed you the word. Please explain what you mean by God showed you his word.
I look forward to your answers
MWarbinek
January 1st, 2006 at 5:35 pm
and so the dance continues…
The spiritual feeling I had is what I believed at the time to be the Holy Ghost… the same spiritual feeling that leads all people to believe in Mormonism… At the time I was Mormon I would have sworn on my life that it was the Holy Ghost who showed me the truth of “the gospel”… just as every Mormon with a testimony claims.. that testimony I had was inspired by the same feeling that inspires all Mormons to believe in the Book of Mormon. and no, I don't believe NOW that it was the Holy Ghost.
It's the same feeling that leads Charismatic Christians to believe they are speaking with the gift of tongues in prophesy.. that causes their bodies to shake, ect., ect.,
I don't believe a Mormon testimony of the “truthfullness of the gospel” is any more true and of the Holy Ghost than the Muslim who prays to Allah…
if we allow these spiritual feeling to be declared as “truth” than you can no more argue against Charismatic Christians than I can argue against Mormons. For they are “filled with the Spirit” also..
Today when I speak of the Spirit of God revealing truth to me, I speak of his giving me understanding of life via first and foremost, his word (the Bible) and through life experience in light of Biblical truth. I speak of the continued growth of my understanding of the “big picture” as God reveals to us in his word.
Anyone can read God's word. Many have. But only God can bring understanding / comprehension.
Mormons suffer from a terrible Isogesis. They interpret scripture not from scripture but from what they bring to scripture. They can't step outside the Mormon Box of illusion long enough to be objective. Instead they blindly follow whatever is taught them by their leaders. When confronted with Scriptural challenges they respond with “well that
January 2nd, 2006 at 8:58 am
Dear John:
(I believe that is who I am corresponding with).
That is the truth of where you are.
John, there was no dance, no games. I asked serious questions with the intent to determine your spirituality, your knowledge and experience with the Spirit of God, and to give an indication of your faith regarding personal revelation and inspiration.
When a person has truly received a spiritual testimony from the Holy Ghost, a personal revelation to the truth and has handled and cared for that testimony and witness properly (see the seed parable), it immediately comes out in their words and actions because it has edified them and increased their faith.
There was and is no such thing with you.
How can I tell?
IN regards to your true spiritual state and faith in revelation and inspiration, here is what you have shown me:
Ÿ Misunderstanding of how the Spirit inspires.
Ÿ Misunderstanding of what a person experiences when inspired.
Ÿ Confusion between personal emotional zeal (bodies shake etc), and inspiration (filling the body, mind and heart with light of truth).
Ÿ Generalization of what Mormon's have as feelings when it comes to inspiration. No doubt using your shortcomings and inadequacies as justification for that generalization.
Ÿ Misunderstanding of what feelings are about and how God uses them.
Ÿ Lack of understanding of how the Holy Ghost works (mocking and comparing inspired testimony of the “truthfulness of the gospel” to prayers to Allah).
Ÿ Misunderstanding of the Spirit of Christ (Light of Christ) versus inspiration or personal revelation from the Holy Ghost.
ŸThinking that personal revelation and inspiration is no more than the occasional minor inspiration any person in the world receives. In other words, you are downgrading it.
Ÿ Attempting to control and expect God to act in the manner you choose, failing to humble yourself and surrender your ways to him (false belief and manner that you expect God to give understanding first and foremost by way of the Bible / see next one).
Ÿ Failing to see that Adam had no “Bible” for God to talk through and failing to see that the Bible was built “line by line”, which is “revelation by revelation”. Failing to see that God uses life to inspire and give understanding. Failing to see the true meaning of 2 Cor. 3:6, that God speaks by the spirit and life of the word first, not by the “letter” of the word.
Ÿ Failing to see that God's word is first and foremost “spiritual” and “life”, (John 6:63), thereby all inspiration and revelation comes in that manner, to which you cannot dictate or control, for that power was never given to you, not even to the prophet.
Ÿ Failing to see that how you judged the Mormon's way of interpreting scripture is exactly what you are doing (see Romans 2:1).
Ÿ Failing to see that mortal “objectivity” is relative. This is the reason for Proverbs 3:5 and 1 Cor 2:14. (What and how we put into it, we get out of it).
Ÿ Failing to see that your own issues and troubles with the Book of Mormon are personal to you. They depict your shortcomings, and do not denounce or confirm God's truth, but they confirm the truth that you have and carry “issue”.
So what have you done instead? - as you have clearly shown me.
Ÿ Harboured discontentment about the Church. Failing to see that what spirit you feed, that is what shall grow and fuel you (thistles vs good fruit parable).
Ÿ Hold contempt for inspiration and personal revelation.
Ÿ Resorted to personal interpretations as valued, over and above personal edification from the Spirit himself.
Ÿ Hold opinion as more valuable than inspiration and revelation. You do this when you put down inspiration and revelation, giving it only a courtesy acknowledgment and placed opinion as paramount.
Ÿ Refuse to humble yourself rightly. How you spoke against feeling and inspiration has shown this.
What seems to have happened John, for the most part, is that you did not get the inspirations you hoped for or in the manner you had expected. With that, feel a bit angry at God for it and/or at the Church, because you ended up doing it all on your own. It may have happened that way with you because you hold the position that your own way works and the way of inspiration does not. In other words, the Church promotes personal revelation and inspiration as the primary means to gain a testimony and conformation of the truth. Since that did not work for you, that, to you, must be a lie or false. Instead you advocate and practiced your own ways of interpretation and study, seeking things to justify your issues and biases toward testimonies and claims by the Church or its members.
Now, I have said all this in what seems to be a “negative” manner, but in order for anyone to tell you what you are doing, I had to address it in truth, else you will not be told.
If you are truly interested in how a testimony reads and how it can occur, then I provide to you the following links.
My testimony: >> http://www.innerlightvision.com/testimonylds.html
Instruction of how to gain a personal testimony: >> http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1991.htm/ensign%20november%201991%20.htm/testimony.htm
Article I wrote of why the Holy Ghost does not testify against any church: >> http://mwarbinek.blogspot.com/
Now in closing, you spoke of blind faith or blind obedience. This Church does not teach that and neither does God. If a person advocates blind anything in regards to faith and testimony, they are not giving good counsel. Why? - allow me to give to you the words from Brigham Young:
(Quote)
January 2nd, 2006 at 11:02 am
Sorry, I had stated the name “John”, where I meant “Sean”. Probably because the posts all sounded with the same spirit.
MWarbinek
January 3rd, 2006 at 10:02 pm
Don't think me calling our little discussion a dance is me not taking you seriously.. to me all life is a dance..
Don't worry, I don't take your negative comments personally..
my negative comments on Mormons are usually taken as such…
your argument reminded me of what my Mother told me.. “if you turned from the church, than you never really had a testimony”..
You see Mark… the spirit does lead me.. just as it “led” you to the truthfullness of the Mormon gospel, it “led” me to the falseness of the Mormon gospel. Obviously only one of us was truly led by God's spirit. You claim I have gross conceptual errors in my understanding of how God's spirit works and I claim the same against you.
you mistake my anti-mormon sentiment as anger or discontent. THe truth is I love the Mormon way of life. half my family is Mormon. Many of my friends are Mormon. I think we Christians would do well to adopt their family values and unity.
we can go round and round with the semantics of how the Holy Ghost works… what is legitimate revelation, ect, ect, ect and get nowhere..
God is the dominating factor in my life. I hold his word, the Holy Bible above all other books, prophecies, revelations, doctrines, lines of thought, ect.. God IS the ultimate authority. ANd since he is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow his word should and does always comply with itself.. any teachings contrary to his word, even if they should come from angels, should be taken as heretical. That is the standard the Bible provides us mere mortals with to judge the accuracy of a prophet, preacher, apostle, man, and his teachings.
the problem I have with Mormonism has nothing to do with feelings. It has nothing to do with my lack of knowleged about Mormon doctrine, Mormon beliefs on the Holy Spirit or anything else Mormon as I have more than enough life experience as a Mormon and continue to have plenty of resources to refresh my memory should I need it. I love many a Mormon. My problem with Mromonism has to do with the lack of ability of the LDS church to comply with the Bible, a book they claim to follow yet refuse to acknowledge when it contradicts them. My problem with Mormonism is that a great number of Mormons don't really know what the Mormon church teaches.
I have a secret to tell you which most Christians as well as most Mormons don't get. There is a brand of Christianity which very closely resembles Mormonism in it's surface level teachings. I know this because those were the first churches I attended as a Christian. My arguments against Mormonism are the same as my arguments against that brand of Christianity. It's just not Biblical.
Now if you would like to get into a Biblical discussion (as this is the only book which we can agree to being God's word) of God, religion, baptism, redemption, sanctification, justification, faith, grace, eschatology, worldviews, Jesus' church, the law, legalism in faith, works and it's role in salvation, sacrifice and it's role in salvation, Jesus and his roles of Prophet priest and king, pre and post earth philosophies, the trinity (one God in three persons), eternity, false prophets or any number of other topics of which I believe Mormons get wrong based soley upon what the Bible has to say and not any personal bias, than I'm more than willing to engage with you. As are most people reading this.
The bottom line is I don't grant that your worldview is valid. it's exlusion of clear Biblical principles leads me to believe that it is you, not I that has a gross conceptual error of how the Holy Spirit reveals truth. I have previously provided you with a link to a website which provides very good declaration of what I confess to have faith in, namely the Westminster Confession of Faith . If you would be so kind as to take the time to read it and engage me with anything you have disagreement with, I'd be happy to defend my Spirit guided, Bible based position with you.
thank you for your time Mark
May God bless you
Sean
January 4th, 2006 at 1:28 pm
Sean said:
you mistake my anti-mormon sentiment as anger or discontent. THe truth is I love the Mormon way of life. half my family is Mormon. Many of my friends are Mormon. I think we Christians would do well to adopt their family values and unity.
MWarbinek replied:
Please do not associate your likes of certain Mormon values as cause or justification to make yourself as “good” when you speak against the doctrines of God and claim you are led by the Spirit when you are not.
IT is the same thing as a person who claims he has friends in a racial group, but speaks against that race.
Sean said:
we can go round and round with the semantics of how the Holy Ghost works… what is legitimate revelation, etc, etc, etc and get nowhere..
MWarbinek replies:
Semantics???
Speaking by the letter of the word Sean, and not the spirit of the word? Comparing my words to the letter of the Bible rather than the spiritual word of the Bible? Do not forget, the letter of the word is death, only the spirit of the word gives life. There is no other way.
Sean said:
…any teachings contrary to his word, even if they should come from angels, should be taken as heretical. That is the standard the Bible provides us mere mortals with to judge the accuracy of a prophet, preacher, apostle, man, and his teachings.
MWarbinek replies:
What you described is NOT the standard of God, not even in the Bible.
I have taken your statement against angels, to speak of “God's angels”, and not the angels of Satan. In light of that, God does speak through his Angels and God's word through them is the same as God's word through his chosen prophet. Look in the Bible how many times “Angels” spoke to the prophets and that is considered God's word today. Your beliefs are nothing more than an elaborate set of denials, which blindly denies the workings of God, even as seen in the Bible. To a person not edified in the word of God will be fooled by what you say, but a person edified in the word of God will see the twists and contradictions you speak.
You speak the doctrines of men, not the doctrines of God.
Sean Said:
the problem I have with Mormonism has nothing to do with feelings. It has nothing to do with my lack of knowleged about Mormon doctrine, Mormon beliefs on the Holy Spirit or anything else Mormon as I have more than enough life experience as a Mormon and continue to have plenty of resources to refresh my memory should I need it.
MWarbinek replied:
You never really learned from your own experiences, have you?
Here is a parable:
A man who believes that a certain kind of people are always liars, will only find liars and he will say “see I told you it was truth”. Yet that man fails to see that what he sows so shall he reap, failing to understand that how he judgeth, so shall he be judged and also he does that same thing he has judged of others, in his own life (Romans 2:1).
That man is a liar.
You have fallen to the same thing that man has fallen to. Fooled by his own experiences, that he created himself.
As the man says, “See what I mean”, advocating false beliefs and poor judgment as truth based on experiences he created and now he calls that as “truth against others” or claims he know TRUTH.
I am not a fool Sean, neither am I led by fools.
Now another thing you said, another twist I find I must “untwist” to show truth.
So you say that you have “nothing to do with feelings”?
Are ye past feelings Sean? (read Bible “Eph 4:19″ / and Book of Mormon “1 Nephi 17:45″).
Read that scripture in the “Bible”. It refers to those who are past feeling because they have not the experience with the Holy Ghost or the Spirit of God. As a result, they are misled.
Sean, why do you contradict yourself. On one hand you say that the Spirit leads you, yet you claim that the problem you have with Mormonism has nothing to do with “feelings”. You may fool others with that line, but any person who has enough experience with the Holy Ghost can see the serious error in your words.
This is truth:
The Holy Spirit leads by “feelings”.
As a result, then, it says you are not led by the Spirit of God since you do not listen to, or believe feelings are involved.
Why?
When a person who is “truly” led by the Holy Spirit is led by the feelings from the Spirit. When that happens, that person is automatically tasked to learn the difference between his own personal feelings versus those given by the Holy Ghost. **ELSE** that person will end up misled because he will not be able to tell the difference between his own created feelings versus the ones Satan encourages, versus the ones that the Holy Ghost gives.
A person has two fronts to identify when learning to listen to the Spirit properly. His own blindness caused by feelings he cannot yet personally identify as his own, created by himself, and the second, the feelings spurred by Satan in his times of weakness.
This is not an easy task, and cannot be done without the aid of the Holy Ghost, along with many times of errors.
As well, in everything we do Sean, involves feelings. It is a natural part of being in the flesh. There is no such thing as “no feeling” else there is no such thing as “love in your heart”.
Are you now going to try to tell me “feeling” as nothing to do with your problems with Mormonism?
Remember that man who believes others are liars?
Isn't it time, even according to the Bible that you review “your feelings”, or are you “past feeling” Sean?
A person cannot be led by the Holy Ghost when they are “past feeling”, and fail to see what “personal feelings” are involved in their “problems”.
Sean said:
My problem with Mormonism has to do with the lack of ability of the LDS church to comply with the Bible, a book they claim to follow yet refuse to acknowledge when it contradicts them. My problem with Mormonism is that a great number of Mormons don't really know what the Mormon church teaches.
MWarbinek:
You mean that the LDS Church will not comply to your expectations. OR the LDS Church will not answer to you and therefore ignore your claims or expectations!
Oh my…(sigh)…lets clarify something here. Be honest and straight forward. This/these problem(s) is/are yours, not anyone else's. It is not my problem because any “contradictions” I have had are resolved because I sought the counsel of the Lord himself, and I am still with his Church. Any further contradictions will be dealt with the same way.
The contradictions you have or claim to, are simply yours only. Other's may align with your contradictions, only because misery loves company. Much like contradiction support groups.
Therefore, “YOU believe” this or that. That would be a true statement. BUT never tell me or anyone, who can discern truth better than you, that the Spirit testified this or that as true which is against the Church. For that is impossible. The Holy Ghost does not testify against any church. The Holy Ghost never testifies against any truth that is from God, no matter where it is. Not once, because that would be testifying against God, even if that truth was spoken by another church.
AND even if you or I cannot see it as truth, the Holy Ghost can, and he will not testify against it, even though you do.
Your thoughts are not my thoughts, God says. (See Isaiah).
Sean said:
I have a secret to tell you which most Christians as well as most Mormons don't get. There is a brand of Christianity which very closely resembles Mormonism in it's surface level teachings. I know this because those were the first churches I attended as a Christian. My arguments against Mormonism are the same as my arguments against that brand of Christianity. It's just not Biblical.
MWarbinek replies:
Do not fool yourself Sean. This “brand” that is contrary to the word of God is everywhere. Outside the Church it is found in doctrines of men, called creeds. Some call it “beliefs” and others call it a “statement of faith” claiming it is of God.
IF it is inside the Church, it is held by a person or a small group who were misled.
BUT by the Church itself, it is not the same as you claim. There is no such brand of beliefs or doctrines. That I give witness to and this witness was confirmed and developed from breathings from the Spirit.
All you have is a belief and all that evil you found to justify that belief. Blind leading the blind Jesus said.
Allow me to give you a true spiritual experience from the Holy Ghost. This came to me before I entered the Church or knew anything of the Church of Jesus Christ you call Mormonism.
The church I attended was Bible focused. They believed the Bible was the word of God. One day as I was in that church listening to a sermon given by its pastor and founder. The pastor used the name of Jesus Christ to speak against other good men that were in the world. Those men were not Christians, but they advocated many good things and were good people. As I listened, the Holy Ghost came in and said to me;
“He who uses the name of God to cause separation will live the Faith of Separation, not the faith of God”.
What I received I never knew myself and could not discern what that pastor was actually doing until the Holy Ghost spoke those words to me. Once I beheld the truth, I was able to discern falsehood. By that I chose to leave that church and never to return.
Did the Holy Ghost testify against that man? - Nay he did not. The Holy Ghost spoke truth and, gave truth. With that I learned to discern what was true and not truth in that experience. From that I was able to exercise free will.
When I entered into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it was again by the power of the Holy Ghost. Revealing things to me I never knew. Even so when I was ordained (then) into the Aaronic priesthood, the Spirit filled me and a vision came into my mind. It was the image (vision) of Jesus Christ himself blessing me. All this coupled with “distinct feelings” I knew were not mine. These experiences and more confirmed the truth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the truth that Joseph Smith is a true prophet and that the Book of Mormon is God's word (restored gospel).
Now about this “Westminster Confession of Faith”.
Any claim of the Westminster Confession of Faith as a faith of God is false. It is also **not** the word of God. It is a “reformed” confession of faith in the Calvinist theological tradition or some variation of it.
In short, it is someone's beliefs which had nothing to do with inspired word of God.
It is the makings of men, originally from the Church of England which was not the Church of Jesus Christ.
As it stands, even today, this confession or statement of faith is considered “subordinate” to the Bible. Not surprising that you adhere to subordinate things that are lesser than the word of God. That is your faith then, isn't it?
“He who adheres to a faith less than the word of God is living a lesser faith, not the faith of God”.
My faith is Spirit developed. Through the written word of God along with actual edification of myself in and through the Spirit.
I do not follow the theologies of men. Unless it spiritually aligns and is confirmed by God himself as true, or that God leads me to see the truth properly, I place it aside and it is not part of my faith, period.
For what I cannot yet understand will harm my faith because I cannot exercise my faith in it when I do not understand.
You cannot tell me otherwise.
Remember God never “reforms” anything of his. He “restores” it when we “lose” it. The Book of Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a “restored” gospel and “restored” Church of God, restored by God himself. God or us, did not need to take “centuries of reformation” to come up with what faith is and what it should be. It only took “revelation”.
By the way, we have been talking about the word of God, and the workings of God, but what we spoke about in regards to the workings of the Holy Spirit is never found in reformations. It is only found in true experiences and revelations from God.
I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ
Amen
Good day.
MWarbinek
January 4th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
MWarbinek replies:
Semantics???
Speaking by the letter of the word Sean, and not the spirit of the word? Comparing my words to the letter of the Bible rather than the spiritual word of the Bible? Do not forget, the letter of the word is death, only the spirit of the word gives life. There is no other way.
—-Mark, I have to jump in here. Where, in the Bible, does it say that “the letter of the word is death”?
And, I wonder, why you would take that letter (that it is death) to be authoritative and no other letter.
It seems that you follow the letter of God's word so long as it lands on your (or LDS) side of the issue; but if it is brought up in an effort to show you (or LDS)may be mistaken, you then accuse Sean (or others) that 1)they never had the Holy Spirit guiding them, 2)question their sincerity of seeking the “testimony” or 3) the letter does not lead to life.
That seems pretty convenient.
Mark said:Your beliefs are
nothing more than an elaborate set of denials, which blindly denies the
workings of God, even as seen in the Bible. To a person not edified in
the word of God will be fooled by what you say, but a person edified in
the word of God will see the twists and contradictions you speak.
You speak the doctrines of men, not the doctrines of God.
I would ask again why it is you appeal to the word of God as it applies to your beliefs and deny it when the ideas go against your beliefs. “As it is correctly translated” sure is helpful. I think the Bible (not BoM, PoGP, D&C) is clear that when someone, anyone (even angels, prophets, Joseph Smith) speak of another Gospel, Paul says “let them be “eternally condemned” Gal 1:7 NIV
Even if we go with a “by the spirit of the word”, this passage is NOT good news for someone/something that preaches another Gospel.
Mark:
Here is a parable:
A man who believes that a certain kind of people are always liars, will
only find liars and he will say “see I told you it was truth”. Yet that
man fails to see that what he sows so shall he reap, failing to
understand that how he judgeth, so shall he be judged and also he does
that same thing he has judged of others, in his own life (Romans 2:1).
If we look at the verse(ROM 2:1), in context, it seems clear that the man is not being condemned for his judging the other man, it is because he is doing the same things he is telling the others not to do.
You say we shouldn't be looking only at the letter of the word, but you seem to do that when it suits you. I have no problem with looking at a passage and seeing what it may mean (spirit of it), but we must take care to look first at what it actually says (letter) in context. It may not be saying what we think it is saying.
Mark said:Are ye past feelings Sean? (read Bible “Eph 4:19″ / and Book of Mormon
“1 Nephi 17:45″).
Read that scripture in the “Bible”. It refers to those who are past
feeling because they have not the experience with the Holy Ghost or the
Spirit of God. As a result, they are misled.
In the Bible passage, it is talking about hardening one's heart and doing impure things, sensual, lustful things. It does not speak to the Holy Ghost experience. Also, it does not seem to follow that just because these folks hardened their hearts and had no sensitivity that we must do the opposite and have all kids of feelings guiding our decisions.
We know that “following your hearts” like the movies tell us to do is not always healthy or always Godly. The Bible tells us that our hearts are deceitful, by nature. Also, just because some may say the Spirit leads us does not mean that it is by our feelings, nor would I suspect that Sean completely negates the role of feelings in the mature Christian life.
Mark:Any claim of the Westminster Confession of Faith as a faith of God is
false. It is also **not** the word of God. It is a “reformed” confession
of faith in the Calvinist theological tradition or some variation of it.
In short, it is someone's beliefs which had nothing to do with inspired
word of God.
I think that Sean asked you not just to dismiss it, but rather to pick out a point or two and explain WHY it is not a valid Biblical belief. That is quite a bold statement to say it has “nothing to do with inspired (sic) word of God”.
I did not read it, but I bet it says something about Jesus being the son of God. That seems like it has to do with the Bible (though I would qualify that with-our understanding of what that means may be different).
It is the makings of men, originally from the Church of England which
was not the Church of Jesus Christ.
As it stands, even today, this confession or statement of faith is
considered “subordinate” to the Bible. Not surprising that you adhere to
subordinate things that are lesser than the word of God. That is your
faith then, isn't it?
Sean, I think you were “moded” by that unsupported, silly statement. How do you feel about that?
Is it God that reforms things or is it men whose understanding of the things of God become as much in line with the Word of God as they can with God's help? I, and I am sure others on this blog, would argue that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was never lost, therefore it did not need to be restored. There were always some faithful persons to carry it on.
One choice seems to be- Do I take the word of Joseph Smith, who had some false prophesies about a few things (but covered it up with calling it “new revelation”), that the true Gospel was lost and in need of resoration or the word of Jesus Christ, God incarnate, who prophsied that He would be killed and raise again from the dead and said that He will build His Church and the “gates of Hades will not overcome it.” Matt 16:18.
My money is on the risen King of Kings, my friend, and that is not Joseph Smith.
Derrick
January 12th, 2006 at 11:22 pm
Derrick - I thank you for replying for me… as I read his reply I was daunted at where to even start replying.
Mark, you give the same emotional response that all Mormons give when I challenge them. I am led by the Spirit. My views of God and his Holy Word come from my prayer and study of His word with confirmation and understanding brought by His Holy Spirit. You claim the very same Spirit inspired understanding I claim. The difference between us is the outside influence of the LDS church skews your understanding.
I hold to the standards of the Westminster Confession of Faith for very good reason. By the time I came across this 4 century old document, my beliefs of what God says in His word had been firmly established NOT by outside influence, as I had avoided most outside influence (and the churches I had attended probably wouldn't hold to any reformed confession, so you can't accuse them of influencing me), but SOLEY BY THE BIBLE. This confession stated the beliefs I had learned from God's word and confirmed me by God's Spirit better than any religion I have ever come across. I would never place this document before the Bible (as you acuse me of). The confession is true only so far as it complies with God's word. I asked you to read it and to let me know how it disagrees with God's word. If you read this you will have a relatively clear understanding of where I stand in my beliefs as I have a relatively clear understanding of where you stand in your beliefs.
We will never meet eye to eye on how God's Spirit works in our lives and our hearts. The only common ground we have is that we both agree that the Holy Bible is God's word. Anything we discuss outside of this I'm certain we won't agree on. I've spent many years discussion with many different LDS the issues I have with the religion. I'm tired of playing on the LDS side of the fence.
So, since God's Spirit leads you and not me I challenge you to do just as I requested. Read the Westminster Confession of Faith… learn what it is I believe and then come to the table Bible in hand and we will discuss this using the only book we both agree is God's word.. THE HOLY BIBLE… I'll even use the 15th century, old English, hard to understand version of the Bible (King James Version) so we will be in total compliance.
God's word is is very clear to his own. And it is a stumbling block to those who aren't his own. Having read the Bible numerous times I know that God IS the same throughout. He doesn't change and niether does the message of his word.
once again, thanx for the reply Derrick… I didn't have the time and I think you did a better job replying than I would have.. my reply probably would have been too emotional…
thanx
Sean
January 14th, 2006 at 1:24 am
Sean, thanks for the encouragement, but I thought I was too emotional.
Haven't heard from Mark lately, so maybe I scared him off. Whoops.
Maybe some pebble was dropped in his shoe.
Derrick