Maybe You Can Hire… The A-Team!

April 23, 2005 Posted by Roger Overton

It's the
A-Team unveiled! (L->R Mike, Amy, Mark, Roger) A few weeks ago the
A-Team was assembled in one room, so we took the opportunity to take a
couple of pictures. This one is of us reading some of the books that
have influenced our thinking. If you click on the picture of the A-Team
on the right, a normal picture of us will pop up (like magic!). For
those who don't know, Amy and Roger are single, so maybe posting this
will help them get some dates.

Category Posted in Main Page, Miscellaneous 3 Comments »

Celebrating Sacred Days

April 22, 2005 Posted by Amy Hall

What does it mean to have a day that is sacred to God? The words “sacred days” tend to bring to mind dour-looking people sitting primly in dark rooms. But is this really what God has in mind?

Consider Nehemiah 8:9-12:

“This day is sacred to the LORD your God. Do not mourn or weep…Go and enjoy choice food and sweet drinks, and send some to those who have nothing prepared. This day is sacred to our Lord. Do not grieve, for the joy of the LORD is your strength.” The Levites calmed all the people, saying, “Be still, for this is a sacred day. Do not grieve.” Then all the people went away to eat and drink, to send portions of food and to celebrate with great joy, because they now understood the words that had been made known to them.

This is what it means to make a day sacred. Celebration! Joy! Giving! This is what pleases and honors God. Every week, we have the opportunity to celebrate a sacred day as we joyfully worship God and fellowship with others. How much more full we would be if we took this day-long call to celebration “seriously!”

Category Posted in Amy's Posts, Main Page, Theology No Comments »

Whom Do You Worship?

April 21, 2005 Posted by Roger Overton

Melinda at STR served the pitch for my next post (which I was going to swing at anyway) with some valuable insights.

“Think about many of the contemporary “worship” songs: What is the primary topic? Me. My feelings. My thoughts. About God, sure. But I'm the topic, not God. The goal of much contemporary worship is to evoke a feeling. True worship is a response to God after taking some time to reflect on God's greatness and what He has done. That evokes awe, humility, thankfulness, etc., and then comes worship and God is the subject. Now think about the lyrics of most of the traditional hymns – great theology and content about God. There's a lot to learn and respond to in those hymns.”

While there are some great contemporary worship songs out there, the trend over the past few years has been to shift the focus of the song from glorifying God to feeling good or spiritual. Some have almost nothing to do with God, like this one that’s been sung at a local church a few times: (called “I Need You to Survive”)

I need you, you need me. / We're all a part of God's body.
Stand with me, agree with me. /We're all a part of God's body.

It is his will, that every need be supplied.

You are important to me, I need you to survive.
You are important to me, I need you to survive.
(repeat 3X)
I pray for you, You pray for me. / I love you, I need you to survive.
I won't harm you with words from my mouth. / I love you, I need you to survive.
(repeat 8 X)
It is his will, that every need be supplied.
You are important to me, I need you to survive.

Who’s being worshipped in this song? Well, it’s not Jesus, “we’re all part of God’s body,” but it really doesn’t have anything to do with Him. It worships you and me. What really got to me was seeing people stand with arms raised high while singing this song. We have indeed miss-stepped when the songs we sing in church is about us rather than God.

A commenter on the STR blog raised the question of if this has been a problem in church history before. I’m not knowledgeable enough to answer that per se, but I think I speak a bit to why we’re so entrenched in it today. When freedom and liberty were the buzzwords of Colonial American they meant something different than what we mean today. The colonists were seeking freedom from a restraining authority keeping them from what they thought they ought to do. Today we seek freedom from any authority to do what ever we want to do.

This is the American individualism rampant in our culture and our churches. We are no longer concerned with what we ought to do, that would assume an authority and purpose higher than our own. Rather, we are consumed with consumerism- it’s all about what I want, how I feel, and me, me, me. If the government doesn’t cater to my wishes, it’s corrupt. If the church service doesn’t make me feel good or entertain me enough, then the pastor needs to go or I’m going to a church that does entertain me. We’ve lost our concern for truth and God’s authority and replaced it with a passion for our own experiences (see my old post- Which God Do You Know?) and desires. God help us when in His temple (the Body of Christ) we worship ourselves at the altar instead of Him.

Category Posted in Culture, Main Page, Roger's Posts, Theology 6 Comments »

The Greater Joy

April 21, 2005 Posted by Amy Hall

People like my friend from my last post see the Christian life as confining and dull. Nothing could be further from the truth! These people, looking in from the outside, see only the things we give up, not realizing these things are worthless in comparison to what we gain.

These people who fear following Jesus are like a man who is going for a stroll past a magnificent cathedral. He’s heard it’s a beautiful place, but looking at it from the outside, he’s not so sure. “It doesn’t look so great to me,” he thinks to himself. Perplexed, he asks a passer-by, “Why on earth does that place have such ugly, murky windows.” “Ah,” the old woman answers, “those are stained glass windows. When the light from the sun shines through them, they are truly beautiful, and to see them is pure joy!” He is extremely skeptical about this and tells her so. She laughs and says, “You have to come inside the walls of the church to see them, but I assure you it is worth it.” He shakes his head firmly and explains, “As you can see, I’m enjoying my walk at the moment, and I’m not in the least interested in confining myself by the walls of a building.” So he continues on his way, congratulating himself that he did not fall for the old woman’s trap.

This man chooses to continue his walk, playing it safe, sticking to the small, familiar pleasures. But don’t for a moment be confused about where the greater joy lies.

Category Posted in Amy's Posts, Apologetics, Main Page, Religion (General) No Comments »

Worshiping as the Body of Christ

April 20, 2005 Posted by Roger Overton

Worship is a bit of a hot topic among some in the emerging church, and there seems to be some kind of explosion of worship music in evangelicalism over the past few years. Is all worship pleasing to God? Worship is more than just the music (something evangelicalism tends to forget). As the Body of Christ we worship through the preaching of God’s Word, the administering of sacraments, song, the fellowship of the body, and serving within and outside of our community. In every area, Jesus tells us we are to worship God in spirit and in truth. How well are we doing? This is especially important to me as I leave a church and seek a new one.

Robert Godfrey offers some questions for evaluation in his booklet Pleasing God in Our Worship (p46):

Does this church love and believe the Bible?
Is the worship of this church filled with the Word of God?
How much of the service is given to the reading of the bible?
How much of this service is given to biblical prayer?
How much of this service is given to singing is biblical in content and character?
What is the content of the preaching?
Is preaching a substantial part of the service?
Is the Law of God clearly present in the service?
Is the Gospel of Jesus Christ clearly expressed and central in the service?
What is the role of the sacraments in the ministry of the church?
Are there elements of the service that are more entertaining than biblical?
Are both joyful thanksgiving and reverent awe expressed and balanced in the service?

To this list I think we should add:

Is the music directed toward God or toward how we feel?
Is the preaching rooted in scripture (whether textual or topical), or is it merely sprinkled with scripture?

What’s great about Dr. Godfrey’s questions is that what comes first is the Word of God. If the Body of Christ does not hold the Bible dear and seek to live it out in every possible way, it will most certainly fail in all else it does. However, we are not to worship God’s Word. While it is divinely inspired and how God has chosen to reveal Himself, it is still God alone who deserves our utmost reverence and worship. Here we have two primacies.

The worship of God is primary in the sense of importance. If we confess the truths of the Bible but do not worship God in light of it, our respect for the Word is irrelevant. We are to worship God the Creator, not anything God created.

The authority of the Bible is primary in the sense of order. If we do not first surrender our hearts and minds to be transformed by God’s Word, whatever attempts we make to worship will be mostly meandering mumblings. In regards to worship, His Word is His instruction for us. If we don’t first understanding what He desires we will likely not fulfill His desires.

(This breakdown of primacies is borrowed from R.C. Sproul’s explanation of the primacies of the heart and mind.)

Category Posted in Main Page, Roger's Posts, Theology 2 Comments »

Eternal Peace and Joy? No Thanks, I'm Busy.

April 20, 2005 Posted by Amy Hall

I've noticed that people have a strange view of what it means to follow Jesus. A friend of mine said he didn't want to become a Christian because he “didn't want religion to take over his life”–as if following Jesus meant taking on an endless drudgery that inevitably chokes all the joy out of life!

Are Christians to be pitied for making Jesus the center of their lives? Consider this analogy I shared with my friend:

Imagine that you meet the most perfect girl (or guy, for you women) in the world for you, and you fall madly in love. She fulfills you, brings you joy and peace, and you want to be with her all the time. Suddenly, you realize that you want to commit to this girl forever and marry her, so you run immediately to her side and say, “Darling, I’m madly in love with you, and I’ve realized that I want to spend all my time with you…so we really have to break up because you’re taking over my life!”

We can all see the silliness of this. Wouldn't it be his joy and delight to commit to her? Even if he had to be with her every day? Even if he had to love her and spend time with her? Even if he had to change his life? Even if he had to take on responsibilities? These questions don’t even make sense because in reality, when we love someone, it’s a joy to wrap our lives around that person.

Now consider my friend's reluctance to find out what Jesus is all about. He is like a man who says, “I know you've met a girl who would be absolutely perfect for me and would bring me endless joy, and you want me to meet her…but, what if that led to marriage? Nah, I’d really have to change my life if I got married. I’m okay with the way things are now, so I’ll just pass.” What a tragedy! He's holding on to something that's worth far less than what he's letting go. He's dismissing his opportunity because he can't comprehend the joy of what he's missing.

I would never coerce anyone to follow Jesus. You should not follow him unless a) you are convinced that what he said is true, and b) you want him, his forgiveness, and his joy more than your own life. If you come for any other reason, you’re wasting your time and you’ll give up before long because it’s not always easy. (It’s the same with marriage.) But don't you owe it to yourself to at least find out what it is you're giving up?

Category Posted in Amy's Posts, Apologetics, Main Page, Religion (General) 13 Comments »

A Time for Reflection

April 18, 2005 Posted by Roger Overton

In the hurried moments of my life (American culture seems necessarily hectic) I find myself rarely taking time to reflect on what’s happened. I finished my bachelor’s degree without a thought. Some moments are more deserving of reflection than others. Today is one of those days.

I’ve been planning for some time now to leave my church when my class ends in June (I teach a Mormonism class and lead a book group). Some how it so happened that I decided to teach most of the important aspects of my class today, instead of sticking to the schedule. Then I went to our noon service. About half way through the service B.A. (Mike) and I looked at each other and got up and left. We just couldn’t take it anymore. I left with a sick feeling; ready to find the nearest garbage bin. Yes, I was sick of the “teaching” and “worship,” but that feeling had more to do with grief that Christ’s body could be so misled, strayed to the point of neglecting God’s Word. I’ve grown so much over the past 3 ½ years that I’ve been at the church, and I’ve grown to love many of the people there. I’m now free to find a church that actually teaches God’s Word, but that freedom comes at a price emotionally difficult to pay.

On the heals of my departure I spoke at First Baptist of Lakewood this evening at their college service, “Emerge.” I grew up at FBCOL, from preschool to right after high school. It is perhaps a divine irony that the same day I leave my church I return as a teacher at the place I was raised. I had a great time. FBCOL will always hold a special place in my heart, not just the place but also the dear friends who have remained dear.

It’s hard for me to measure the impact of today; the real significance of it. I’m so grieved by the church I’ve just left, but so thankful for my friends (especially Mike). I’m disappointed to leave behind my ministry there, but I’m excited to see the opportunities that have come about for me to minister elsewhere. It’s hard to joyful on a day like this. But as I hopped in my car my CD player qued the chorus of a Something Like Silas song, “When Jesus Came”

“God is hope, God is light; God is fire that burns so bright. When Jesus came so full of grace His love poured down upon my face.

When frailty is my veil and I, can’t feel His presence here, still constant He prevails through the change of time, of time.”

If I hope in pastors, in ministries, in consistories, I will always be let down. But in Christ there is hope; there is grace. He is always constant, and that is something I can’t help but find joy in. “Hallelujah, glory be to our great God.”

(My apologies if this sounds like more of a journal entry- blogging has become my journal)

Category Posted in Main Page, Miscellaneous, Roger's Posts 3 Comments »

Tax Madness

April 16, 2005 Posted by Amy Hall

Could someone please explain to me how people who own businesses in California can turn somersaults trying to find loopholes to avoid paying taxes and then turn around and vote Democrat? With their vote, they're proclaiming, “Someone must give money to take care of the people!” With their actions, they're adding quietly, “But it's not going to be me….”

I fear that pushing care for the poor and needy into the hands of the government fosters this kind of disconnect. In California, we just passed a law establishing a special tax on people who make over a million dollars. Well, that's easy for us to say–most of us don't make that much! But how is this different from sending a mob to their houses with pitchforks and forcing them to hand over their money? They didn't have a chance. This seems very unfair to me.

It's easy to take money from others (through taxes) to help people, but much harder–and more character building–to take on the responsibility of caring for them yourself. Conservatives who care about the poor are consistent–they do not vote for the government to take on this task, but instead, they personally give their own money to charity. Liberals, though they care about the poor, generally vote to help people through the government–which unfortunately translates to giving away other people's money. Since the government takes care of this for them, they tend to not give as much to charity on their own. (Take a look at this 2004 generosity index from the Catalogue For Philanthropy which ranks the generosity of the people of each state by comparing what they have to what they give; then compare the list to this “red state,” “blue state” election map from the same year, and you'll see an unmistakable correlation.)

I suppose the question then becomes, is it better for us to take on the responsibility of caring for the poor ourselves, or to have the government collect the money to give away for us? I argue strongly for the former–especially in light of our discussion on the need for everyone in an organization (in this case, a country) to have a personal sense of responsibility for the well-being of the whole.

Category Posted in Amy's Posts, Culture, Main Page, Politics 32 Comments »

Of Visions and Stories: The Distinctive Problems with Joseph Smiths First Vision

April 15, 2005 Posted by Roger Overton

I’ve
finally gotten around to posting my research paper on Joseph Smith’s
First Vision. The LDS Church teaches that in 1820 Joseph was praying to
God, enquiring as to which religion is true. God and Jesus then
appeared to Smith, told him all the religions were false, that his sins
were for forgiven, and that he was chosen to bring forth the fullness
of the gospel (lost by Christians after the apostles died). Since my
paper is 32 page printed, I’ve summarized my analysis below:

In
my paper I analyze the earliest 11 first or second person accounts of
the First Vision. I draw out six important elements that differ between
the accounts: Smith’s age & therefore the date of the vision, the
mention of revivals, attacks by dark powers, the appearance of
personages, the message of corrupt churches, and the central message of
the vision.

The
first problem is the differing ages in Smith’s own accounts, either 14
or 15. This wouldn’t matter much if it were just a man telling a story,
but if Smith contradicted himself this brings into question his
authority as a prophet of God, especially since the LDS Church has
accepted the age 14 into their Scriptures.

The
next and most complex problem is of revivals. In only one of Smith’s
accounts does he even mention revivals, and this happens to be the
account accepted as Scripture. There are a number of difficulties, but
the most damaging one is that Smith claims four of his family members
joined a church as a result of the revivals that occurred prior to his
vision. Every piece of historical evidence (particularly his mother’s
autobiography) says they went to church in 1822 at the earliest, which
would make Joseph Smith at least 15, but more like 16 when all of his
family went.

The
earliest mention we have of Smith seeing both God the Father and Jesus
Christ in his vision are 19 years after the vision (1839). The earliest
account only mentions Jesus, the others simply say personages or
angelic beings. This doesn’t disprove that Smith saw them, but it seems
questionable that no one knew about it until the Church had been chased
once again from their homes and settled in Illinois.

On
the issue of which church was the true church, Joseph Smith’s earliest
account said he had already made up his mind and was actually praying
for mercy. Most subsequent vision accounts tell us Smith was praying to
find out which was true. Here again the “prophet” contradicted himself.

Regarding
the central message, it’s interesting to note that the first five
accounts contain the message of Smith’s sins being forgiven while the
first three make no mention of the fullness of the gospel being
restored. While the omission of the differing messages is not a
contradiction, they present a pattern that cannot go without notice.

It’s
also important to note that most early Mormon documents fail to mention
the First Vision. Smith’s mother skips right to the Second Vision when
Smith was told about the Book of Mormon. This is difficult to
understand in light of the important of the First Vision in Mormon
history…

“This
vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world
history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it
occurred.” – Apostle Bruce R. McConkie

“Our
whole strength rests on the validity of that vision. It either occurred
or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it
did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the
heavens.” –current LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley

The
historical evidence points to a story about a vision that does not at
all resemble what the LDS Church teaches today. Instead, it evolved
over time to meet the needs of a new and growing church under the
leadership of Joseph Smith. If his original story refers to anything in
actual history, it is nothing but a figment of Smith’s imagination (a
dream).

Here's my full paper.

Here's a handy chart comparing the 11 vision accounts.

Category Posted in Apologetics, Main Page, Mormonism, Roger's Posts No Comments »

Intelligent Design Lecture

April 15, 2005 Posted by Amy Hall

In light of our recent discussion on intelligent design, I thought I would pass along this notice I just received. No matter which side you're on, this should be interesting:

An exclusive FREE lecture with

Dr. William Dembski

“The Intelligent Design Revolution”

Monday, April 18, 7:30pm, Sutherland Auditorium, Biola University

Is there a scientifically-founded alternative to Darwinism? What is the latest progress in the Intelligent Design Movement? How are secular scientists responding? As one of the recognized world experts on the Intelligent Design Movement, Dr. Dembski will provide authoritative and stimulating answers to the most complex questions.

Dr. Dembski is Founding Director of the Center for Science and Theology and Professor of Theology and Science at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is also a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute and holds Ph.D.s in Math and Philosophy and an M.Div. He is the author of seven books including “The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance Through Small Probabilities.”

Map to Biola University: http://www.biola.edu/about/map.cfm

Category Posted in Amy's Posts, Apologetics, Main Page, Science No Comments »

Maybe You Can Hire… The A-Team!

April 23, 2005 Posted by Roger Overton